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Post by Stu on Jun 3, 2017 15:26:59 GMT -8
If every single creator decided no longer to sign for CGC, guess what happens...? Nothing. If only we could test that theory!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 15:28:49 GMT -8
If every single creator decided no longer to sign for CGC, guess what happens...? Nothing. If only we could test that theory!
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Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Jun 3, 2017 17:01:00 GMT -8
I'm still collecting data on this matter. My opinion has moved around a bit. I used to be irritated by artists who complained about this stuff, but I'm starting to have a little more empathy for them.
There are exceptions, but most artists don't have a collector mentality. They are 'in' the business, and it's a different reality for them.
If I put myself in their shoes, I could see myself being fed up with a lot of things going on in this hobby.
From 'their' perspective, I think... 1) Despite statements to the contrary, they see that most SS books end up on eBay for sale. 2) They worry about 'real fans' who have much longer wait times because of all the dirty flippers in line. 3) They are irritated by someone who seems more concerned with the condition of the book and the placement of the signature rather than the content within.
I still think my idea about a separate commercial signing process is the way to go. This process could be done from the comfort of the artist's home, rather than at conventions.
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Post by FiveZero on Jun 3, 2017 17:41:26 GMT -8
I'm still collecting data on this matter. My opinion has moved around a bit. I used to be irritated by artists who complained about this stuff, but I'm starting to have a little more empathy for them. There are exceptions, but most artists don't have a collector mentality. They are 'in' the business, and it's a different reality for them. If I put myself in their shoes, I could see myself being fed up with a lot of things going on in this hobby. From 'their' perspective, I think... 1) Despite statements to the contrary, they see that most SS books end up on eBay for sale. 2) They worry about 'real fans' who have much longer wait times because of all the dirty flippers in line. 3) They are irritated by someone who seems more concerned with the condition of the book and the placement of the signature rather than the content within. I still think my idea about a separate commercial signing process is the way to go. This process could be done from the comfort of the artist's home, rather than at conventions. Also putting myself in their shoes, I too would be a little fed up with this if I knew my "real fans" couldn't obtain copies of my book because they were being purchased, slabbed, and pimped out which would turn away new/current fans and readers.
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Post by Siggy's Tar Dust® on Jun 3, 2017 20:21:55 GMT -8
I wonder how often people don't research , or care to research the creator's sig when making these windows. I can see how this may be irritating if some of these windows don't accommodate for the varying shapes and sizes. I hate having to cram my long signature in cramped spaces when they pop up on an application or whatever. I imagine several would irritate me, and it would be worse if there's a person in front of me expecting me to alter my natural signature. And, if on top of that, I have good reason for getting a "flipper" vibe (I'm sure some make it ridiculously obvious), I'm likely to form a point of view on it.
I do see this as an unfortunate situation for real fans in need of uber grade SS slabs. I also see flipping, and the long waits they make for real fans with 2 sentimental books they're just dying to speak with the creator about and hoping they'll still feel like sharing a few words with a fan by the time they get to the front, as an unfortunate situation.
I like Ditch's idea. And as long as the grading companies can still pitch their product at cons, minus the SS program (not saying that would be a piece of cake), they shouldn't feel too threatened. It will still be a pain in the ass for real fans wanting SS books (meaning long lines they'll still have to endure at these signings due to flippers), but... well, it's not perfect, but I think it sounds better.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 21:06:14 GMT -8
I'm still collecting data on this matter. My opinion has moved around a bit. I used to be irritated by artists who complained about this stuff, but I'm starting to have a little more empathy for them. There are exceptions, but most artists don't have a collector mentality. They are 'in' the business, and it's a different reality for them. If I put myself in their shoes, I could see myself being fed up with a lot of things going on in this hobby. From 'their' perspective, I think... 1) Despite statements to the contrary, they see that most SS books end up on eBay for sale. How would anyone know this? There are tens of thousands of SS books that exist, if not more. How can anyone say "most" SS books end up on eBay for sale? And even if that were true...it's not, but let's make the argument...how is that ANY different from a retailer selling comic books out of a local store, if a creator is going to charge? It's about access. Not everyone can go to conventions. Going to conventions is expensive and time consuming. Getting books slabbed is VERY time consuming, and rather daunting for those not experienced. They'd still like to buy certified signed copies of books they'd like. Signing has been going on since the first creator attended the first convention, and probably before. Signing of comic books by creators is older than all of us. The "real fan" argument is invalid. No one knows who is a "real fan" and who is not, based on appearances. I am a REAL FAN of ALL of the creators whose books I have signed, and can recite my favorite work from them. ...which is a foolish presumption. If they are concerned...ask the person whose books they're signing what their favorite work is, and why. That already exists.
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Post by FiveZero on Jun 3, 2017 21:09:07 GMT -8
I don't blame the artist/celebrity for getting irritated with some of these "fans". I've seen people get really picky for the simplest of details and having to deal with that on a constant basis get irritating. One of the dumbest case of just total disrespect for a celebrity was when I helped coordinate an event with Burt Ward. He was nice enough to spend a few hours to autograph some books and anything anyone brought to the event to help raise money for charity i was supporting. I had this one autograph seeker ask me in front of Burt, how she can get she be sure the autograph she received is authentic, even though the damn book was signed in front of her.
When there is a perception of free money to be had, in this case an autographed Robin comic book by the actor who played him, people wind up showing their true greed. I could tell there were some people who were genuinely there to meet and talk with Burt, but some were just trying to find a way to cash out on the free autographs.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 21:11:11 GMT -8
I wonder how often people don't research , or care to research the creator's sig when making these windows. I can see how this may be irritating if some of these windows don't accommodate for the varying shapes and sizes. I hate having to cram my long signature in cramped spaces when they pop up on an application or whatever. I imagine several would irritate me, and it would be worse if there's a person in front of me expecting me to alter my natural signature. And, if on top of that, I have good reason for getting a "flipper" vibe (I'm sure some make it ridiculously obvious), I'm likely to form a point of view on it. I do see this as an unfortunate situation for real fans in need of uber grade SS slabs. I also see flipping, and the long waits they make for real fans with 2 sentimental books they're just dying to speak with the creator about and hoping they'll still feel like sharing a few words with a fan by the time they get to the front, as an unfortunate situation. I like Ditch's idea. And as long as the grading companies can still pitch their product at cons, minus the SS program (not saying that would be a piece of cake), they shouldn't feel too threatened. It will still be a pain in the ass for real fans wanting SS books (meaning long lines they'll still have to endure at these signings due to flippers), but... well, it's not perfect, but I think it sounds better. You will not convince the slabbing companies to voluntarily turn down the SS program at cons. The reason people get stuffed signed at cons is because the creators are THERE. You can get sigs from lots of creators, in one place, if you're willing to do the legwork. And...do you guys have any idea how many people in line are "real fans" and how many are flippers...? I do this. Have for years. It's what I've done. I know the people who are "dirty flippers." I guarantee you, 95% or more of a line at a creator's table are people who aren't "flippers." And 95% of all creators don't have lines for sigs. I got stuff signed by Art Adams, Tim Vigil, Mike Zeck, Brent Anderson, Matt Wagner, Tony Daniel, Terry Moore, and Alex Maleev in the last two months...none of them had lines.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2017 21:13:53 GMT -8
What it comes down to is this: creators show up at cons to meet people interested in their work. If it's people interested to "make money"...well, the publishers, distributors, printers, and retailers are interested in "making money" off the creators, too.
It comes with the territory.
If they're only interested in meeting "real fans", perhaps they shouldn't sign at all...and some creators don't...and/or have a "real fan" test, or just suck it up and not get butthurt over the motives of people wanting to meet them and BE GLAD SOMEONE WANTS TO MEET THEM.
Crazy.
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Post by Siggy's Tar Dust® on Jun 3, 2017 21:42:35 GMT -8
Well, I'm certainly not qualified to debate numbers
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Post by Siggy's Tar Dust® on Jun 3, 2017 22:01:51 GMT -8
But, Jimenez said it's the windows that are the reason for his announcement, and I can understand that.
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Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Jun 3, 2017 23:33:05 GMT -8
I'm still collecting data on this matter. My opinion has moved around a bit. I used to be irritated by artists who complained about this stuff, but I'm starting to have a little more empathy for them. There are exceptions, but most artists don't have a collector mentality. They are 'in' the business, and it's a different reality for them. If I put myself in their shoes, I could see myself being fed up with a lot of things going on in this hobby. From 'their' perspective, I think...1) Despite statements to the contrary, they see that most SS books end up on eBay for sale.How would anyone know this? There are tens of thousands of SS books that exist, if not more. How can anyone say "most" SS books end up on eBay for sale? And even if that were true...it's not, but let's make the argument...how is that ANY different from a retailer selling comic books out of a local store, if a creator is going to charge? It's about access. Not everyone can go to conventions. Going to conventions is expensive and time consuming. Getting books slabbed is VERY time consuming, and rather daunting for those not experienced. They'd still like to buy certified signed copies of books they'd like. Signing has been going on since the first creator attended the first convention, and probably before. Signing of comic books by creators is older than all of us. >>> I doubt your argument will change their perception when they open up eBay and see eleventy billion SS books for sale every day of the week. It's all about perception.The "real fan" argument is invalid. No one knows who is a "real fan" and who is not, based on appearances. I am a REAL FAN of ALL of the creators whose books I have signed, and can recite my favorite work from them. >>> Again, it's all about perception. Would you accept a personalized signature on your SS book? No? Good luck explaining that to a guy who believes his signature should be a memento rather than a commodity....which is a foolish presumption. If they are concerned...ask the person whose books they're signing what their favorite work is, and why. >>>Again, perception. Why would they bother with some weird test when the person in question is already behaving like a non-fan to them?That already exists. Just to be clear, I'm not taking anyone's side on this. I have friends who are serious fans that create and collect SS books. It's not my cup of tea, but I totally get why they love signatures. It just one of the many ways someone can enjoy the hobby. I'm also starting to understand the artist perspective. And since there might be a watershed moment in the works here (at least, that's the concern), I think it would make sense for others to try out this perspective as well.
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Post by Siggy's Tar Dust® on Jun 4, 2017 1:49:06 GMT -8
How would anyone know this? There are tens of thousands of SS books that exist, if not more. How can anyone say "most" SS books end up on eBay for sale? And even if that were true...it's not, but let's make the argument...how is that ANY different from a retailer selling comic books out of a local store, if a creator is going to charge? It's about access. Not everyone can go to conventions. Going to conventions is expensive and time consuming. Getting books slabbed is VERY time consuming, and rather daunting for those not experienced. They'd still like to buy certified signed copies of books they'd like. Signing has been going on since the first creator attended the first convention, and probably before. Signing of comic books by creators is older than all of us. >>> I doubt your argument will change their perception when they open up eBay and see eleventy billion SS books for sale every day of the week. It's all about perception.The "real fan" argument is invalid. No one knows who is a "real fan" and who is not, based on appearances. I am a REAL FAN of ALL of the creators whose books I have signed, and can recite my favorite work from them. >>> Again, it's all about perception. Would you accept a personalized signature on your SS book? No? Good luck explaining that to a guy who believes his signature should be a memento rather than a commodity....which is a foolish presumption. If they are concerned...ask the person whose books they're signing what their favorite work is, and why. >>>Again, perception. Why would they bother with some weird test when the person in question is already behaving like a non-fan to them?That already exists. Just to be clear, I'm not taking anyone's side on this. I have friends who are serious fans that create and collect SS books. It's not my cup of tea, but I totally get why they love signatures. It just one of the many ways someone can enjoy the hobby. I'm also starting to understand the artist perspective. And since there might be a watershed moment in the works here (at least, that's the concern), I think it would make sense for others to try out this perspective as well. And I'm not saying I want the SS program to fail, if that's how it sounds. I own a couple and cracked a couple. I do see how people who are unable to attend shows or signings rely on them for sigs. Still, I support the creator's decisions. It would be nice if whoever joins this movement[?] at least thinks it over seriously instead of just climbing on board. Individual experiences will probably play a big part in how they feel, obviously. If one creator, for whatever reason, had many more 'obnoxious' encounters, they'd probably have problem with the program. We're an emotional species. It kinda makes me a little sad that there are fans that must or bust have their signatures in a slab. A signature commemorating what could be their only encounter in quality Mylite/AFBBs just isn't good enough. If that's their thing, that's their thing, but Just pray these creators don't read the grading forums. Right or wrong, that would surely give them some kind of perspective.
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Post by The Curmudgeon on Jun 4, 2017 4:44:09 GMT -8
Just to be clear, I'm not taking anyone's side on this. I have friends who are serious fans that create and collect SS books. It's not my cup of tea, but I totally get why they love signatures. It just one of the many ways someone can enjoy the hobby. I'm also starting to understand the artist perspective. And since there might be a watershed moment in the works here (at least, that's the concern), I think it would make sense for others to try out this perspective as well. Perhaps a "Personalized Signature Series" for the "real fans" is in order. One of the grading companies (it doesn't matter which) could initiate this. There could be a special tier, send the book to company "X," they take it to the artist/writer/whoever along with the name of the owner of the book and any special request. The book could be signed with a personal message, doodle, etc. This could assure the creator that this book will be going to someone who is not going to just turn around and throw up on auction site "D" for sale. Perhaps two lines at the conventions: Personalized and Standard Signature. The flipper is not going to get their book personalized but the "true fan" would surely love to get their book signed with something that says "this is intended for you and only you." Me personally, I like to get my books signed on the inside near the signer's credit.
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Post by Stu on Jun 4, 2017 7:56:02 GMT -8
Perception is reality!
I like the personalization idea, submitters should get a discount if they get it personalized. Reminds me of when I met Steranko. First thing he said after I put down my books is "what's your name pal?" (in a jovial tone).
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