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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 23, 2023 15:09:05 GMT -8
Anyone who collects SA Marvels knows that the top (or bottom, or both) ends of the cover OFTEN but not always has an overhang. You've seen it a million times. If you're unaware, this means that the TOP OR BOTTOM edge of the cover protrudes beyond the edge of the interior pages. That's really weird, considering how comics are published. We know that ALL SADDLESTITCHED COMICS (or magazines that are assembled with staples at the spine) have their 3 edges trimmed AFTER they're folded and stapled. The wraps are stacked, the book is folded, then stapled and then finally trimmed on the 3 open sides! There's no variation of this order and hasn't been for 100 years. This means that ALL 3 OPEN EDGES are trimmed at the same time to the same length and width and so all pages including cover should sit square like a card deck.In fact, they likely WERE exactly like this when they were published new and put on the newsstand at the time, just the way all modern comics are now. And yet we'd think they'd look trimmed now if we saw SA books looking like that with all pages lining up perfectly.  So why aren't they still this way in our collections? Why are the covers a different size than the interiors on many SA Marvels? Not only that, but in relation to the cover overhang at top and bottom being a different length there are variations in interior pages sizes as well. We also know that the right, open reading edge of the cover and pages don't always line up. What I mean is that when there is an overhang lengthwise, top to bottom, that the cover seems shorter than the interior pages left to right! Not only that but when the cover is often shorter WIDTH-WISE at the top of the book it's not so on the bottom of the book on many SA comics! So not only does the cover change dimensions lengthwise, top to bottom, it changes more widthwise on one end of the book than it does on the other! We also know that the right, or open, or reading edge of the INTERIOR pages change with the same way and are often not the same width at the top and at the bottom of the book. The outer wraps seem to often be shorter at the top than at the bottom just like the covers and they "fan" from outer wrap to inner rap - and this is more exaggerated at the top of the book than at the bottom of the book. There are several strange things about this worth discussing. 1) Why do the overhang lengths of the top and bottom covers often (but not always) differ from the interior pages?2) Why does the WIDTH of the cover differ from the interior pages on many SA Marvels at the open, reading edge? 3) When the width of the wraps varies, why does it differ more at the top of of the book than at the bottom of the book?4) When there is an overhang at the top or bottom, why is the size of the overhang is NOT consistent? It varies in size from comic to comic.5) Then, to TOTALLY confound everyone there is the anomaly where some books that sit square like a card deck and don't have these variations in page length (no overhang) or width (no fanning of pages). Why not?
6) Even more confounding: Why does almost NONE of the above happen to the same degree on DC's from the Silver Age?  Go! |
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 23, 2023 15:24:35 GMT -8
Complicated topic with many facets to the discussion, so I tried to edit the above slightly for clarity.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2023 17:18:57 GMT -8
Comic book printing isn't brain surgery, and a large number of variables may pertain with any given batch.
These variations also extend well beyond Marvel books, and both precede and follow the Silver Age.
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 23, 2023 17:52:57 GMT -8
Comic book printing isn't brain surgery, and a large number of variables may pertain with any given batch. These variations also extend well beyond Marvel books, and both precede and follow the Silver Age. ALL books, when printed are cut square like a deck of cards at the time of printing. Why are ALL books not square like a deck of cards after printing? Why are only some while others are not? And why do the differences in page sizes very greatly? |
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Post by jcjames on Jan 23, 2023 18:07:04 GMT -8
I thought most were stapled, trimmed THEN folded.
Or trimmed, stapled and then folded. In any case, I thought folding was last in production occurring after trimming & stapling and that's why pages near the centerfold appear slightly larger than pages near the covers.
That gives the "beveled edge/point" to the interior pages when looking edge-on, and you can tell if it was trimmed post-production if it's not beveled (among other clues).
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 23, 2023 19:05:36 GMT -8
I thought most were stapled, trimmed THEN folded. Or trimmed, stapled and then folded. In any case, I thought folding was last in production occurring after trimming & stapling and that's why pages near the centerfold appear slightly larger than pages near the covers. That gives the "beveled edge/point" to the interior pages when looking edge-on, and you can tell if it was trimmed post-production if it's not beveled (among other clues). No sir. DiceX (as well as others) who worked in print and publication have all stated that the books are folded, stapled and then trimmed LAST. There is a way to prove this. When you examine the trimmed edge of Silver Age books you will see that the scoring marks and imperfections on the edges of the paper from the trimming process go across ALL pages. If they trimmed front half and back halves of the comic separately with the book OPEN and THEN folded the book, those score / printer marks would not be uniform across all the edges of a given comic. I'll add some pics when I get a chance to show what I'm talking about but if you look at many SA and BA books, you'll see any roughness on the edges (if there is any) nade from a dull cutting blade shows up as a pattern that goes across all pages of the comic front front to back. |
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 23, 2023 19:22:50 GMT -8
This is not the best example but it's all I have right now. These markings ALWAYS go across the edge of the comic front front to back (or back to front). They made change across the edge slightly but they don't stop at the centerfold and then change suddenly, like they would if a comic had it's two halves trimmed separately with the book open and then stapled shut. You'll find the same sorts of patterns across the top and bottom edges when you start looking at them closely too.  |
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Post by jcjames on Jan 23, 2023 20:38:43 GMT -8
This is not the best example but it's all I have right now. These markings ALWAYS go across the edge of the comic front front to back (or back to front). They made change across the edge slightly but they don't stop at the centerfold and then change suddenly, like they would if a comic had it's two halves trimmed separately with the book open and then stapled shut. You'll find the same sorts of patterns across the top and bottom edges when you start looking at them closely too. Well then I dunno - maybe there's something about the compression of the books after the cutting. But something is causing the inner/center wraps to protrude just a bit more and appear longer than the outer wraps causing the beveled edge of the books. When you DON'T see the beveled edge and they're all flat like a block that's when you might suspect post-production trimming. |
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 23, 2023 21:39:36 GMT -8
This is not the best example but it's all I have right now. These markings ALWAYS go across the edge of the comic front front to back (or back to front). They made change across the edge slightly but they don't stop at the centerfold and then change suddenly, like they would if a comic had it's two halves trimmed separately with the book open and then stapled shut. You'll find the same sorts of patterns across the top and bottom edges when you start looking at them closely too. Well then I dunno - maybe there's something about the compression of the books after the cutting. But something is causing the inner/center wraps to protrude just a bit more and appear longer than the outer wraps causing the beveled edge of the books. When you DON'T see the beveled edge and they're all flat like a block that's when you might suspect post-production trimming. There is a bevelling of the pages from outside to inside, but the bevelling is more pronounced at the TOP of the pages than at the bottom. That's one thing. THEN, there are also books that do bevel and books that don't. Like you said, some are flat like a block (or as I described it, as a deck of cards) - and yes, trimming is more suspect then...but it's not necessarily trimmed because that is how they came from the printer initially AND some manage to stay that way while others don't. I'm waiting to see if anyone else has any thoughts. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2023 17:19:29 GMT -8
Comic book printing isn't brain surgery, and a large number of variables may pertain with any given batch. These variations also extend well beyond Marvel books, and both precede and follow the Silver Age. ALL books, when printed are cut square like a deck of cards at the time of printing. Why are ALL books not square like a deck of cards after printing? Why are only some while others are not? And why do the differences in page sizes very greatly? As Zod replied above, a large number of variables may apply, and often did. Comic printing is neither brain surgery nor a government minting operation, and thus numerous and at times considerable variations occur. |
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 24, 2023 17:37:39 GMT -8
ALL books, when printed are cut square like a deck of cards at the time of printing. Why are ALL books not square like a deck of cards after printing? Why are only some while others are not? And why do the differences in page sizes very greatly? As Zod replied above, a large number of variables may apply, and often did. Comic printing is neither brain surgery nor a government minting operation, and thus numerous and at times considerable variations occur. What are the "large number of variables [that] may pertain with any given batch"? And which books do "these variations also extend well beyond Marvel books, and both precede and follow the Silver Age" ? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2023 17:58:15 GMT -8
As Zod replied above, a large number of variables may apply, and often did. Comic printing is neither brain surgery nor a government minting operation, and thus numerous and at times considerable variations occur. What are the "large number of variables [that] may pertain with any given batch"? And which books do "these variations also extend well beyond Marvel books, and both precede and follow the Silver Age" ? Zod had understood that you sold "vintage" comic books for a living, so finds himself shocked at your queries. Have you truly not seen the extraordinary multi-publisher variations and defects of the Silver Age, including those you note in your OP? Zod finds this genuinely astonishing. |
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 24, 2023 18:01:18 GMT -8
What are the "large number of variables [that] may pertain with any given batch"? And which books do "these variations also extend well beyond Marvel books, and both precede and follow the Silver Age" ? Zod had understood that you sold "vintage" comic books for a living, so finds himself shocked at your queries. Have you truly not seen the extraordinary multi-publisher variations and defects of the Silver Age, including those you note in your OP? Zod finds this genuinely astonishing. I do and I have. I'm asking you specifically what you're talking about so that we're on the same page. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2023 18:11:33 GMT -8
Zod had understood that you sold "vintage" comic books for a living, so finds himself shocked at your queries. Have you truly not seen the extraordinary multi-publisher variations and defects of the Silver Age, including those you note in your OP? Zod finds this genuinely astonishing. I do and I have. I'm asking you specifically what you're talking about so that we're on the same page. As clearly stated above, Zod speaks in part of the variations and defects you've noted only in Silver Age Marvels, but which are present at times in nearly all publisher output of the period, and spilling into other ages as well. Do you only deal in Silver Age Marvels and are thus not aware of that which Zod speaks? If so, why would you presume it only affected Marvels? Quite strange... |
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 24, 2023 18:49:03 GMT -8
I do and I have. I'm asking you specifically what you're talking about so that we're on the same page. As clearly stated above, Zod speaks in part of the variations and defects you've noted only in Silver Age Marvels, but which are present at times in nearly all publisher output of the period, and spilling into other ages as well. Do you only deal in Silver Age Marvels and are thus not aware of that which Zod speaks? If so, why would you presume it only affected Marvels? Quite strange... I'm aware of the variations in all books. I simply used SA Marvels as an example because they are the most prominent example of comics to discuss overhang. I was asking YOU for examples to clarify what YOU'RE talking about since YOU brought up non Marvel books. I'm pretty experienced at handling books of ALL eras and have a pretty solid grasp on the overhang (or lack thereof) in all eras and I can say that overhang is not very common outside of SA Marvels (this would include pre-hero Atlas going back into the 50s) and BA books (I'd include many CA books in this as well since they are similar to BA books). Outside of these books the overhang defect is much less common. So I was asking you which books you were specifically talking about and what variations cause these differences...since you mentioned them first. |
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