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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2022 22:13:57 GMT -8
I've recently been reading about the brilliant, tragic Bobby Fischer, and his storied career as (arguably) the greatest chess player who ever lived. A Jewish anti-Semite, that contradiction in and of itself speaks to the pitfalls of conspiracy theories and the often brilliant minds which embrace them. But far more dangerous than any conspiracy theory is the labeling of unpopular or inconvenient truths as such. Please note that this thread is NOT intended to be a battleground or discussion thread about any specific so-called conspiracy theory, but rather a general discussion of the whys/wherefores of ideas which may be labeled as such, rightly or wrongly.Flat Earthers? Nuts. 9/11 Demolition Truthers? Ditto. Mooners? (People who believe we didn't land thereupon) Well... It starts to get complicated here, but ultimately, while I can understand the skepticism, nope - we've been there. The Trump-Russia Collusion Delusion? Too politically convenient in its anti-Russia stench, as was impeaching Trump when it was Biden who behaved criminally in Ukraine. The Wuhan Lab Leak Theory? I think it unlikely, and as with the Trump-Russia nonsense, just too politically convenient. There are powerful interests which seek to demonize both China and Russia as Satanic adversaries, so context is key. Gulf of Tonkin Indicent? And there we go; an ACTUAL and outrageous USG criminal conspiracy. The claim that the Nord Stream 2 Sabotage was perpetrated by Russia? WHY would Russia do this??? It would be like putting your Spidey #1 (the ACTUAL Spidey #1, not some 90s crap) in a blender just to  some fellow collector off; it's just not gonna happen. (An FF #1, sure.)  Again, PLEASE do not use this thread to bring evidence for/against any of these random examples!!!!I'm simply seeking to make the point that so-called "conspiracy theories" are sometimes all too real and other times all too convenient. I don't like dismissing anything as a CT any more than I like to see people destroy their credibility by insisting that an essentially baseless belief is true. I think the most important test of any so-called CT is as follows: 1) What ACTUAL evidence exists for this idea? 2) What are my experiences and biases, and what inclines me to believe or not believe? (Do I have ANY dog in the fight?) 3) What are the biases of those pushing for dismissal/acceptance of the idea? What do they have to gain/lose? 4) Why is this so important to me, and is it objectively significant enough to justify the time and energy I'm expending? I guess that's it. What say any and all? |
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Post by vintagecomics on Dec 4, 2022 2:03:19 GMT -8
I think the most important test of any so-called CT is as follows: 1) What ACTUAL evidence exists for this idea? 2) What are my experiences and biases, and what inclines me to believe or not believe? (Do I have ANY dog in the fight?) 3) What are the biases of those pushing for dismissal/acceptance of the idea? What do they have to gain/lose? 4) Why is this so important to me, and is it objectively significant enough to justify the time and energy I'm expending? I guess that's it. What say any and all? As someone who experienced a brutal, cult like upbringing and was forced to unbelieve everything I was raised to believe I have lived through an upheaval in my life that forced me to re-evaluate everything my life was. I'm 52 and I'm still dealing with some of the fallout even though I started the process over 20 years ago. The reason state that is because once you go through something traumatic like this, being forced to root out the bias you've been raised in, you develop a self-centering mechanism that doesn't allow you to easily get fooled again by yourself. You start to second check everything and trust nothing. I know a lot of people would say that I'm a conspiracy theorist but I believe this experience has honed me in a way that I tend to see patterns form well ahead of the average person. For example, most people who don't personally dislike me on CGC forums (and even some enemies), even if they disagreed with me on things I took a stand on nearly 3 years ago RE pandemic measures have told me that they now agree with me as more evidence has come out and that time has proven me right. I think once you're not blinded by white noise and distractions, once you go through something traumatic that forces you to see through them, truths become blatantly clear very quickly and often much quicker than the naked eye can see by average Joe Public. I see it as a self protection mechanism that evolves out of past traumas...almost like an 'immune system' for safety. There's a saying that learning the hard way or from mistakes is the best teacher. I think there are parallels to this in other aspects of life that mirror this theory. Women for example, due to their lack of physical strength and vulnerability develop skills related to awareness that often are far more heightened than men's sense of awareness. Why? To avoid becoming hurt. It's a safety mechanism that teaches them to read signals that men don't perceive. They become hyper aware of details that most men, who are far less worried about being physically hurt by, are completely oblivious to. My 'tldr' point? Going through trauma really arms you in a way to see through self bias in a way that not much else can. It creates a neuron reaction in your brain that permanently creates a marker you never forget. And once you go through said traume, you use that marker as a 'landmark' in decision making helping you stay more unbiased or more objective than if you hadn't gone through it. It's like spotting color touch on a comic. Once you learn to stop it, it always jumps out at you forever after. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2022 2:12:27 GMT -8
Fantastic response, Vin. A really important topic (if I do say so myself!), and one worthy of consideration regardless of one's position on any given so-called CT. |
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Post by vintagecomics on Dec 4, 2022 2:27:21 GMT -8
Fantastic response, Vin. A really important topic (if I do say so myself!), and one worthy of consideration regardless of one's position on any given so-called CT. I edited my last 5 lines for more clarity. And thanks. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2022 4:51:08 GMT -8
To amplify point 4 in the OP, and add a new layer...
One of the risks taken by those championing what may be referred to (rightly or wrongly) as conspiracy theories is seeing their own credibility eroded (again rightly or wrongly), and I think this is often not taken into sufficient account, and with tragic results.
The new layer consists of relevance and final cost, and a failure to sufficiently consider these factors when championing unpopular theories.
If a theory is proven true, why does it matter, what good will come of it being revealed as true, and what cost may be paid and by whom?
In the case of Covid lab leak theories, this kind of testing is done by numerous countries, and the unlikely revelation that China's experiments leaked will lead to exactly nothing good.
Low level people might be punished or disappeared, but the work will not stop - not in China, nor the US, Russia, Israel or any of the many other countries conducting these extremely dangerous experiments.
Worse, it might lead to destabilizing sanctions which could harm or kill millions, and even ultimately lead to war.
Just some additional food for thought.
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Post by vintagecomics on Dec 8, 2022 10:47:39 GMT -8
To amplify point 4 in the OP, and add a new layer... One of the risks taken by those championing what may be referred to (rightly or wrongly) as conspiracy theories is seeing their own credibility eroded (again rightly or wrongly), and I think this is often not taken into sufficient account, and with tragic results. The new layer consists of relevance and final cost, and a failure to sufficiently consider these factors when championing unpopular theories. If a theory is proven true, why does it matter, what good will come of it being revealed as true, and what cost may be paid and by whom? In the case of Covid lab leak theories, this kind of testing is done by numerous countries, and the unlikely revelation that China's experiments leaked will lead to exactly nothing good. Low level people might be punished or disappeared, but the work will not stop - not in China, nor the US, Russia, Israel or any of the many other countries conducting these extremely dangerous experiments. Worse, it might lead to destabilizing sanctions which could harm or kill millions, and even ultimately lead to war. Just some additional food for thought. Philosophically speaking, the cost should be irrelevant to the pursuit of truth. All that matters is understanding the truth because if you have a life built on untruth the cost to building on that untruth will be far greater than the cost of revealing it early. But you've outlined the exact reason why there is resistance to a proper investigation of the lab leak theory and this is all well known stuff. There's a lot to lose. Scientists will lose BILLIONS in grant / research money. Nations will have tensions heightened. People in power will lose that power. The entire reason there is resistance to truth is because of money and power. And politics and politicians line up that resistance to look reasonable but it's all a sham that's easy to spot once you get good as seeing through shams. Just like a comic book. Once you learn to "see" restoration you can never unsee it again. ----------------------------------- I am going to take exception to your use of the word unlikely (bolded above). You're assuming a lot without having the discussion. While you stated in the Covid thread that there is no real proof for a lab leak and obfuscated the discussion with politics, I've built quite a case for it. You chose not to respond to any of my points yet you still persist in calling the case for the lab leak unlikely. This sounds like you're dismissing the discussion in favor of your own personal bias / conclusion that the lab leak theory may just be a political accusation against China. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding and you're saying that the truth simply won't be revealed even if it is known? |
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Post by kav on Dec 8, 2022 12:40:47 GMT -8
the problem with calling something a conspiracy theory is that much like the word racist, lefties have co opted the words to disparage any criticism of democrats. they love these end run dismissals where you do not have to actually address facts, just call something a right wing conspiracy theory, laugh, and move on.
and later when it is proven that what was being claimed is now undeniable, not a peep about 'we were wrong'.
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Post by vintagecomics on Dec 8, 2022 13:50:20 GMT -8
the problem with calling something a conspiracy theory The REAL problem with the phrase "conspiracy theory" is that the person slinging the term automatically assumes the theory is false.  Just like the person calling someone a racist automatically assumes the person is racist. It's a narcissistic, impatient, knee jerk reaction bred by social media which has reduced people's patience and ability to think things through to that of a squirrel. They can't be bothered to use patience, logic and their words to navigate a conversation, learn the little nuances and possibly even learn where they themselves were wrong. It's quicker and easier to just label something and move on even if that label is wrong because they think they have 'numbers' on their side and they think their time is more valuable than learning the truth. This is all a product of social media. It's identity politics and tribalism on steroids with no patience to slow it down and undo the wrongs. And the reason the world is a chaotic mess is because they don't take the time to learn things properly and these spin-off accusations just escalate tension. They never de-escalate it. |
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Post by kav on Dec 8, 2022 13:57:36 GMT -8
the problem with calling something a conspiracy theory The REAL problem with the phrase "conspiracy theory" is that the person slinging the term automatically assumes the theory is false. Just like the person calling someone a racist automatically assumes the person is racist. It's a narcissistic, impatient, knee jerk reaction bred by social media which has reduced people's patience and ability to think things through to that of a squirrel. They can't be bothered to use patience, logic and their words to navigate a conversation, learn the little nuances and possibly even learn where they themselves were wrong. It's quicker and easier to just label something and move on even if that label is wrong because they think they have 'numbers' on their side and they think their time is more valuable than learning the truth. This is all a product of social media. It's identity politics and tribalism on steroids with no patience to slow it down and undo the wrongs. And the reason the world is a chaotic mess is because they don't take the time to learn things properly and these spin-off accusations just escalate tension. They never de-escalate it. social media and the main stream media. ppl watch don lemonhead and others spout these things then they add it to their mental app. |
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Post by vintagecomics on Dec 8, 2022 15:04:11 GMT -8
I think the most important test of any so-called CT is as follows: 1) What ACTUAL evidence exists for this idea? 2) What are my experiences and biases, and what inclines me to believe or not believe? (Do I have ANY dog in the fight?) 3) What are the biases of those pushing for dismissal/acceptance of the idea? What do they have to gain/lose? 4) Why is this so important to me, and is it objectively significant enough to justify the time and energy I'm expending? I guess that's it. What say any and all? <snip> My 'tldr' point? Going through trauma really arms you in a way to see through self bias in a way that not much else can. It creates a neuron reaction in your brain that permanently creates a marker you never forget. And once you go through said traume, you use that marker as a 'landmark' in decision making helping you stay more unbiased or more objective than if you hadn't gone through it. It's like spotting color touch on a comic. Once you learn to stop it, it always jumps out at you forever after. I'm going to continue to expound on this because I think I'm onto something here without realizing it.  My past trauma, which forced me to go against everything I was brainwashed into believing from early childhood has not only given me what I called neuron markers, sort of like landmarks where I can easily recognize patterns of indoctrination as I see them happening (these things literally jump out at me now like daylight in the mist) but it's also forced me to re-evaluate my self esteem. This was a natural progression from breaking free of the indoctrination. In having to turn my back on my upbringing and the family / friends that I was raised with has forced me to decide and realize whether I could oppose these people in my life and stand alone because of my beliefs. In essence, I had to choose which was more important to me, my beliefs in the truth or my family.  Psychological pressure, either from family / friends close to you or other sources like media, people in authority or work etc will ALL affect how you process outside information. Do I care how people feel about me? Do I care how it will affect all my relationships? These are MASSIVE influences in the way people process information and many if not most use emotion over logic when considering conspiracy theory. I don't get dragged into groups and by extension, I don't think I get dragged into group think and I think my evolution as a person and breaking free from my past has a lot to do with that. One of the most common messages I have gotten from CGC board members is thanking me for giving them a new way of thinking about something from an angle they hadn't considered. I've had that said to me dozens of times. ------------------------------------------------------ Now, before anyone says I'm making this all about me again I'm typing all this out for a reason.  It is very, VERY important not to get sucked into groups or use emotional bonds to make logical decisions. And I believe one of the ways to do that is to make yourself uncomfortable sometimes ON PURPOSE. How? By wading into uncharted territory sometimes against your desire to. By having a debate with someone who is smarter than you. By taking a cold shower when you normally wouldn't. By keeping quiet when you would normally have the urge to speak. By doing things the opposite of what you would normally do, you break free of old patterns and learn to see and feel things in a different way. You break the groupthink by leaving the group. You can always come back, but the experience you will have by leaving the group will ALWAYS make you a better person. -------------------------------- This was made very clear to me in very clear way a while back when a friend of mine had free tickets to the Flaming Lips.  It's a band I'd NEVER listen to. Like EVER. And she didn't feel like going. We're both rockers. I told her that we should probably go JUST BECAUSE we didn't' feel like going and we'd probably get something good out of it. It ended up being the best live show I'd seen all year and we left refreshed and recharged. But if we'd stayed within our comfort zone we'd have missed the entire experience. I was so glad I went to a show I didn't want to go to.  |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2022 7:54:41 GMT -8
To amplify point 4 in the OP, and add a new layer... One of the risks taken by those championing what may be referred to (rightly or wrongly) as conspiracy theories is seeing their own credibility eroded (again rightly or wrongly), and I think this is often not taken into sufficient account, and with tragic results. The new layer consists of relevance and final cost, and a failure to sufficiently consider these factors when championing unpopular theories. If a theory is proven true, why does it matter, what good will come of it being revealed as true, and what cost may be paid and by whom? In the case of Covid lab leak theories, this kind of testing is done by numerous countries, and the unlikely revelation that China's experiments leaked will lead to exactly nothing good. Low level people might be punished or disappeared, but the work will not stop - not in China, nor the US, Russia, Israel or any of the many other countries conducting these extremely dangerous experiments. Worse, it might lead to destabilizing sanctions which could harm or kill millions, and even ultimately lead to war. Just some additional food for thought. Philosophically speaking, the cost should be irrelevant to the pursuit of truth. All that matters is understanding the truth because if you have a life built on untruth the cost to building on that untruth will be far greater than the cost of revealing it early. But you've outlined the exact reason why there is resistance to a proper investigation of the lab leak theory and this is all well known stuff. There's a lot to lose. Scientists will lose BILLIONS in grant / research money. Nations will have tensions heightened. People in power will lose that power. The entire reason there is resistance to truth is because of money and power. And politics and politicians line up that resistance to look reasonable but it's all a sham that's easy to spot once you get good as seeing through shams. Just like a comic book. Once you learn to "see" restoration you can never unsee it again. ----------------------------------- I am going to take exception to your use of the word unlikely (bolded above). You're assuming a lot without having the discussion. While you stated in the Covid thread that there is no real proof for a lab leak and obfuscated the discussion with politics, I've built quite a case for it. You chose not to respond to any of my points yet you still persist in calling the case for the lab leak unlikely. This sounds like you're dismissing the discussion in favor of your own personal bias / conclusion that the lab leak theory may just be a political accusation against China. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding and you're saying that the truth simply won't be revealed even if it is known? Philosophically speaking, the cost should be irrelevant to the pursuit of truth. What alleged truth, and why the particular alleged truth in question?
Endlessly impeaching Trump and claiming China leaked bat flu are both exercises in alleged truth-seeking that benefit no one good.
In fact, they distract from REAL issues, which are the weaponized political reaction to both Trump and Covid.
The alleged pursuit of truth may well distract from real issues even as it destroys the pursuer's credibility.All that matters is understanding the truth because if you have a life built on untruth the cost to building on that untruth will be far greater than the cost of revealing it early. What life isn't built on lies and half-truths and hiding from reality?
Skeletons are pouring out of every closet.But you've outlined the exact reason why there is resistance to a proper investigation of the lab leak theory and this is all well known stuff. "Proper investigation."
Like the ones endlessly needed for Trump?
There's a lot to lose. But nothing would be lost by those who would continue this research even in the incredibly unlikely event a lab leak happened & was proved.
This work will never stop as long as there is the capacity to perform it.
Scientists will lose BILLIONS in grant / research money. Nope - never happen.
Nations will have tensions heightened. One of the reasons the LLT is being promoted.
Vilifying China serves the interests of the powerful and soulless, and nothing good will ever come of it.People in power will lose that power. OMG.
No. This simply will not happen. Never.The entire reason there is resistance to truth is because of money and power. Some truth, yes.
But fantasies like the LLT serve only the rich and powerful, and further their horrendous agendas.
You need to check your paystub, as you're working for the interests of the very people you despise. (To be clear, I don't mean you're literally being paid by evil people, but the effect is the same - you're their useful proxy when you promote things like the LLT.)And politics and politicians line up that resistance to look reasonable but it's all a sham that's easy to spot once you get good as seeing through shams. Imaginary shams in this case.Just like a comic book. Once you learn to "see" restoration you can never unsee it again. You use this example a lot.
People see resto that isn't there all the time, and miss resto that is there all the time as well.
It depends somewhat on who the beneficiary of seeing/not seeing is, but useful seers with no actual horse in the race happen all the time as well.----------------------------------- I am going to take exception to your use of the word unlikely (bolded above). You're assuming a lot without having the discussion. I'm having the real discussion, Vin.While you stated in the Covid thread that there is no real proof for a lab leak and obfuscated the discussion with politics, I've built quite a case for it. You chose not to respond to any of my points yet you still persist in calling the case for the lab leak unlikely. Look around you. This is the real discussion.
There is simply no evidence for a lab leak.This sounds like you're dismissing the discussion in favor of your own personal bias / conclusion that the lab leak theory may just be a political accusation against China. I'm dismissing baseless theories which you've concluded are evidence.
I'd do the same thing if you were insisting Biden is really a reptile.
You're China bashing, though I realize this isn't your intention.
This will lead nowhere good.
Quite the contrary in fact.Or maybe I'm misunderstanding and you're saying that the truth simply won't be revealed even if it is known? I'm saying it wouldn't matter even in the incredibly unlikely event it IS true.
It's worse than a fool's errand to pursue it - it's actually harmful.
Don't be a herald for the evil intentions of the rich and powerful and soulless, Vin.
Focus on the REAL and provable story, which is the vicious politicization of the virus. |
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Post by kav on Dec 11, 2022 11:45:23 GMT -8
You use this example a lot. People see resto that isn't there all the time, and miss resto that is there all the time as well. It depends somewhat on who the beneficiary of seeing/not seeing is, but useful seers with no actual horse in the race happen all the time as well. People in power will lose that power. OMG. No. This simply will not happen. Never. you just won the internet! |
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Post by vintagecomics on Dec 11, 2022 11:53:24 GMT -8
Philosophically speaking, the cost should be irrelevant to the pursuit of truth. All that matters is understanding the truth because if you have a life built on untruth the cost to building on that untruth will be far greater than the cost of revealing it early.
A) But fantasies like the LLT serve only the rich and powerful, and further their horrendous agendas.
B) People see resto that isn't there all the time, and miss resto that is there all the time as well.Nope. A) The LLT is not a fantasy. You just keep dismissing it as such without any evidence to support your claim. Meanwhile, the true body of evidence supports it's investigation and frankly, there is way more evidence to support the LLT than the Zoonotic theory. You just never reference any of it and sweep it all under the excuse of politics. B) Nobody is perfect, but the two are not equal. More people in the general public MISS more resto than spot resto that isn't there statistically speaking. But once you learn to spot resto you greatly increase your chances of spotting resto that IS there and reduce making the mistake of spotting resto that isn't there. You keep trying to blur the lines in every discussion and I'm not sure why. |
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Post by vintagecomics on Dec 11, 2022 11:54:59 GMT -8
You use this example a lot. People see resto that isn't there all the time, and miss resto that is there all the time as well. It depends somewhat on who the beneficiary of seeing/not seeing is, but useful seers with no actual horse in the race happen all the time as well. People in power will lose that power. OMG. No. This simply will not happen. Never. you just won the internet! If there are no consequences to the wrongdoing then the system is rigged and hopeless. |
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Post by kav on Dec 11, 2022 12:01:06 GMT -8
you just won the internet! If there are no consequences to the wrongdoing then the system is rigged and hopeless. i just watched the big short, 99 homes, and inside job. the system is rigged and hopeless. |
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some fellow collector off; it's just not gonna happen. (An FF #1, sure.) 
