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Post by steveinthecity on Jan 13, 2021 15:43:46 GMT -8
Well, I just go another 2 week vacation. Why? This is what the mods wrote in my warning.
"It's not acceptable on the CGC boards to compare a pandemic response to Hitler, particularly with such vivid imagery about genocide" Effing ridiculous. This is what i posted verbatim and it was a call to respect each other not a comparison to genocide: Interesting that you bring up Nazis. They're bad. Really, really bad. But the general public during that historic time was responsible for allowing it to happen. It didn't just happen in a vacuum.
Interestingly enough, there are some parallels to what's happening today.
This is my general, loose understanding of how things went down.
Hitler was a clean freak and hated unclean things. He was in essence a germaphobe. He bathed 4 times a day for this reason.
When he was brought into power some of his earliest campaigns were to 'clean up' Germany by fumigating factories to kill bugs and rodents and other undesirables.
Hitler appealed to a large percentage of his followers because biologically and psychologically society doesn't like germs and unclean things.
If something is annoying you can just avoid it and walk away. But when something is unclean or germ ridden, you need to eradicate it. You kill it. You burn it.
He finally convinced his followers that some humans were unclean and fumigated them with a similar version of the toxin that was used to fumigate factories in the early days of his campaign.
We've now all been convinced that every other human is a problem as we all 'could be infected with the virus'
That's some serious parallel going on there.
It's time to start paying attention to how we feel about our fellow man. Especially those that disagree with us.
Two weeks seems excessive just going off what you posted above. I’m sure I missed most of the posts that both led to and surrounded your comment as I only look at that thread maybe twice a week and then binge read, but here’s my thought. The CV thread has shown participants sniping at others, mocking intent, dismissiveness, etc., none of which are ingredients for a good discussion, open dialogue, and exchange of ideas and opinions. I don’t expect any of that to change. The topic is just too volatile for a civil discussion in the format and forum(platform) provided. Dander is up and hackles are raised. People’s sensitivity is heightened. Then... Smack! “Hitler!” Your comments likely would be better entertained in a more academic oriented discussion, with participants more open to ideas, analogies or parallels to past events, but the Water Cooler isn’t that place. All someone sees/reads is “Hitler” and everything devolves from there. I’m always interested in ideas, conjecture, etc., for me that’s part of the enjoyment I get from conversation. I like sometimes finding out I’m wrong about things, mostly when I realize I’m missing important facts or the bigger picture, whatever. I know that’s contributing to my learning. I know the Water Cooler isn’t the place I can successfully have those discussions around many “sensitive” topics I find very interesting. You know, religion, politics, lizard people on the moon, all that good stuff. I might chime in some random threads about my favorite soup or Daylight Savings or something, but mostly I just read. It’s less headache that way. All that is just my long-winded way of suggesting that you consider avoiding certain threads/topics in the future. I like reading your posts and I’d rather be able to read something of yours in a restoration, Comics General, or silly saga of the forgotten turkey sandwich thread than have nothing at all for the next two weeks, which is how it stands now.
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 13, 2021 19:37:59 GMT -8
Well, I just go another 2 week vacation. Why? This is what the mods wrote in my warning.
"It's not acceptable on the CGC boards to compare a pandemic response to Hitler, particularly with such vivid imagery about genocide" Effing ridiculous. This is what i posted verbatim and it was a call to respect each other not a comparison to genocide: Interesting that you bring up Nazis. They're bad. Really, really bad. But the general public during that historic time was responsible for allowing it to happen. It didn't just happen in a vacuum.
Interestingly enough, there are some parallels to what's happening today.
This is my general, loose understanding of how things went down.
Hitler was a clean freak and hated unclean things. He was in essence a germaphobe. He bathed 4 times a day for this reason.
When he was brought into power some of his earliest campaigns were to 'clean up' Germany by fumigating factories to kill bugs and rodents and other undesirables.
Hitler appealed to a large percentage of his followers because biologically and psychologically society doesn't like germs and unclean things.
If something is annoying you can just avoid it and walk away. But when something is unclean or germ ridden, you need to eradicate it. You kill it. You burn it.
He finally convinced his followers that some humans were unclean and fumigated them with a similar version of the toxin that was used to fumigate factories in the early days of his campaign.
We've now all been convinced that every other human is a problem as we all 'could be infected with the virus'
That's some serious parallel going on there.
It's time to start paying attention to how we feel about our fellow man. Especially those that disagree with us.
Two weeks seems excessive just going off what you posted above. I’m sure I missed most of the posts that both led to and surrounded your comment as I only look at that thread maybe twice a week and then binge read, but here’s my thought. The CV thread has shown participants sniping at others, mocking intent, dismissiveness, etc., none of which are ingredients for a good discussion, open dialogue, and exchange of ideas and opinions. I don’t expect any of that to change. The topic is just too volatile for a civil discussion in the format and forum(platform) provided. Dander is up and hackles are raised. People’s sensitivity is heightened. Then... Smack! “Hitler!” Your comments likely would be better entertained in a more academic oriented discussion, with participants more open to ideas, analogies or parallels to past events, but the Water Cooler isn’t that place. All someone sees/reads is “Hitler” and everything devolves from there. I’m always interested in ideas, conjecture, etc., for me that’s part of the enjoyment I get from conversation. I like sometimes finding out I’m wrong about things, mostly when I realize I’m missing important facts or the bigger picture, whatever. I know that’s contributing to my learning. I know the Water Cooler isn’t the place I can successfully have those discussions around many “sensitive” topics I find very interesting. You know, religion, politics, lizard people on the moon, all that good stuff. I might chime in some random threads about my favorite soup or Daylight Savings or something, but mostly I just read. It’s less headache that way. All that is just my long-winded way of suggesting that you consider avoiding certain threads/topics in the future. I like reading your posts and I’d rather be able to read something of yours in a restoration, Comics General, or silly saga of the forgotten turkey sandwich thread than have nothing at all for the next two weeks, which is how it stands now.
This cancel culture is out of hand. Eventually it will turn back on itself and those doing the cancelling will start getting cancelled themselves.
Funny thing is, I wasn't comparing the pandemic to a genocide. I was trying to exort people to care about each other more.
Like you, I love a strong, challenging discussion.
One of the main problems with moderation over there is that they are all biased on the same side. They're posting IN the Covid thread about how they want hard lockdowns and then moderating people who don't want hard lockdowns. It's a pathetic situation but it's something propagating across the world over.
In one post, Twitter is telling Ugandans they can't censor information on a public cite to influence an election....and in another they censor Trump and influenced the US elections with their hypocritical cancel culture.
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Post by steveinthecity on Jan 14, 2021 10:54:29 GMT -8
This cancel culture is out of hand. Eventually it will turn back on itself and those doing the cancelling will start getting cancelled themselves.
Funny thing is, I wasn't comparing the pandemic to a genocide. I was trying to exort people to care about each other more.
Like you, I love a strong, challenging discussion.
One of the main problems with moderation over there is that they are all biased on the same side. They're posting IN the Covid thread about how they want hard lockdowns and then moderating people who don't want hard lockdowns. It's a pathetic situation but it's something propagating across the world over.
In one post, Twitter is telling Ugandans they can't censor information on a public cite to influence an election....and in another they censor Trump and influenced the US elections with their hypocritical cancel culture.
I agree, “cancel culture” is out of hand, and I’m concerned we’ve only seen the tip of the iceberg. To the second point, your intent might have been reasonable, but including “Hitler” or any references to him (or his life, regime, etc.) in most online conversation where WW2 era subjects are not the topic will be met unfavorably. I’m only speaking anecdotally here, but that’s been my experience. As for moderation, I can see where biases might interfere, but I’m not sure that could ever be resolved as the boards presently operate. From what I understand about the Twitter/Ugandan/censorship thing is this: A political opposition party was determined to have multiple shill accounts to spread info making those topics “trend” or seem more popular than they really were. Twitter shut those down. In a separate activity, the Ugandan Government. shut down all social media sites, isp’s, etc. causing an outcry of “censorship” from those sites as well as free speech and human rights advocates. The groups in vocal support of President Trump then put forth comments labeling Twitter(Facebook, & others) “hypocrites” for banning Pres. Trump. These are two separate things happening. An example if it was the same would be if the Joe Biden camp had various duplicate or shill accounts removed from Twitter, then the U.S. Gov’t. banning or disrupting all social media access for Americans.
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parker1865
TCBF Member
Joined: September 2018
Posts: 1,325
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Post by parker1865 on Jan 14, 2021 12:37:50 GMT -8
interesting. a u.s. representative, duly elected by the people, is outed because of visiting the vacation location of hitler.
a u.s. representative, duly elected by the people, licensed to carry a firearm, is outed because of carrying a firearm as allowed by law, inside the capitol, and stating he was protected and protective of representative and others from assault by violent lawbreakers that assaulted the capitol, and an investigation is being demanded to determine if he carried the firearm into the chamber, which is a no-no under the house rules.
a u.s. representative, duly elected by the people, is being investigated as possibly (read probably by the individuals asking for the investigation) as assisting the violent lawbreakers, because it is possible (read probable by the individuals asking for the investigation) he aided and abetted the anarchists in planning the capitol assault beforehand, by giving tours of the capitol before the protest.
a us. representative, duly elected by the people, has openly compared potus to bin laden, and for this reason should be impeached, because even though binladen didn't personally take part in the 9/11 attack, he inspired it and caused his followers to carry the attack out, and that is why potus should suffer the same fate as bin laden.
so i ask, does anybody think moderation on cgc is going to give one damn moment to not outing roy or anybody else that moderation deems on the "wrong" side, because of commentary? i don't think so.
cgc should do what pcgs did....close down the water cooler, especially when member moderators are doing and saying and aligning their position with a certain group's position, and openly doing so on a thread, and then moderating those members it deems are not worthy of being in the group.
roughly 13 people (that i know of) do not have any chance at all of receiving equal treatment. they have been identified as targets. roy is target #1. best not to post at all.
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Post by steveinthecity on Jan 14, 2021 15:07:36 GMT -8
... so i ask, does anybody think moderation on cgc is going to give one damn moment to not outing roy or anybody else that moderation deems on the "wrong" side, because of commentary? i don't think so. cgc should do what pcgs did....close down the water cooler, especially when member moderators are doing and saying and aligning their position with a certain group's position, and openly doing so on a thread, and then moderating those members it deems are not worthy of being in the group. roughly 13 people (that i know of) do not have any chance at all of receiving equal treatment. they have been identified as targets. roy is target #1. best not to post at all. I’m not clear how anyone has been “outed” by Moderation. Penalized or silenced I would understand. I don’t believe closing the WC really solves anything. The “best not to post at all” is probably the best course if one wants to keep utilizing the boards for whatever reason. Invite some or all of the 13 people you’ve identified to post over here.
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Post by Stu on Jan 14, 2021 15:47:35 GMT -8
Yup, if you want to speak freely, this is the place to do it.
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parker1865
TCBF Member
Joined: September 2018
Posts: 1,325
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Post by parker1865 on Jan 14, 2021 15:57:36 GMT -8
outed as the bad boys and giving a start flag and/or starting pistol to the moderators to proceed with bang them while they can, and let the non-outed members get away with the same bs without repercussions. the bad boys automatically get penalized and silenced. of course you know that. i have told those i know to come here. close it, if they can not treat all members the same. i don't want to hear the cgc blarney that ....oh, we have to monitor this because the women and children...and the people that might be offended .....we run these boards for the comic collectors to have tubs of fun.....we allow members a wc out of the goodness of our heart and we can take it away..... good. take it away. out of sight out of mind. it worked pretty well for pcgs. but don't tell me the best solution is not to post in a cgc open water cooler, because, if we decide we don't like you and we like the other guy. we are going to slam you. what would i want if the wc remains? a requirement to state publicly when a member notifies. the moderation team. i do it. what is the big deal? know what else i want? a requirement that any moderator be a member and clearly explain when someone is moderated, instead of bull moderation because a mod is pissed off. otherwise, close it, since they are doing it out of the goodness of their heart, and it does not add anything to the business coffers and probably costs cgc money blahblahblah. baloney. here is an idea: save the money by not hiring outside entities to monitor the wc, by eliminating the wc. is all that clear? and is that all you gleaned from my post? you said something about enjoying conversation, etc. what is your opinion concerning my factual comments concerning the duly elected members of the u.s. house of representatives? you said yourself that you don't expect anything to change, re. sniping, dismissiveness, ocking, etc. why leave the wc stand, then? so it continues to be dismissive of other members and allow the moderators to amuse themselves? with the present situation, there is not one logical justification for letting the bs continue. bronzilla was right. absolutely correct, not to mention many others that left because of the same bs.....condescension, disingenuous attacks, belittling and caste system krap, to name a few. we don't like you, you are racist. we don't like you because you because you say stupid things. you don't support what we support. you are ignorant. you have insignificant credentials. stop using big words you are embarrassing yourself. you are insane and wearing a tinfoil hat....blahblahblah. you still think not getting rid of the wc as it now stands is not a logical answer? why not?
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Post by steveinthecity on Jan 14, 2021 23:47:22 GMT -8
A lot to reply to here. outed as the bad boys and giving a start flag and/or starting pistol to the moderators to proceed with bang them while they can, and let the non-outed members get away with the same bs without repercussions. the bad boys automatically get penalized and silenced. of course you know that. i have told those i know to come here. close it, if they can not treat all members the same. i don't want to hear the cgc blarney that ....oh, we have to monitor this because the women and children...and the people that might be offended .....we run these boards for the comic collectors to have tubs of fun.....we allow members a wc out of the real goodness of our heart and we can take it away..... good. take it away. out of sight out of mind. it worked pretty well for pcgs. but don't tell me the best solution is not to post in a cgc open water cooler, because, if we decide we don't like you and we like the other guy. we are going to slam you. I’m fairly certain the CGC boards would get along fine without the WC, but I would defer to someone experienced in operating message boards to make those decisions. Being just a member/user my thought was that larger more active boards likely ran smoother if there was a designated area for off-topic or general conversation, in CGC’s case, away from the hobby specific threads. I do like this idea, but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen this implemented elsewhere. There’s so much talk of “button humping” at CGC that disclosing the humpers might better expose problem members and even reveal patterns of “misconduct” among members and/or individual Moderators. I miss Arch’s old Moderation thread as well as the public strikes/suspension thread. On one hand, anyone receiving punitive action is nobody else’s business, but disclosing this could reveal whether or not all members are being treated fairly/equally. Again, here I can only defer to someone more knowledgeable than myself as to what the benefits are to the parent company by having the WC. Your posts are generally always pretty clear to me except when you talk about insurance/billing stuff which flies over my head. Also, I know you have a good sense of humor, and I know I miss some of the subtle references you make, but when I catch them, they’re good! I read the entire post. Wasn’t sure what else to say, but I’ll try. If the Representative was flaunting legal and safety rules by carrying a firearm then I’m unhappy, mad, and a little bit worried and scared for what could have transpired. I’m not much of a gun-guy, so I really, really like it when any firearm related rules are followed. I don’t know any of the background or other details about that story except for the brief snippets I saw on tv news. It’s not my playground or on my property, nor is it funded by tax dollars for public use, so I don’t feel I have any right telling others how to act or denying them a “place” they use. Might I find the use distasteful? Sure. That sounds like any other place I’ve tried hard to avoid since I was old enough to roam the neighborhoods alone. The WC isn’t mine. I’m not interested in telling people how to live, what to eat, what to collect, etc., so I’m certainly not going to be invested in getting a chat board shut down unless and until there’s real world repercussions. I don’t think it’s a question of logic, it’s just not my place to decide this stuff for anyone else. interesting. a u.s. representative, duly elected by the people, is outed because of visiting the vacation location of hitler. a u.s. representative, duly elected by the people, licensed to carry a firearm, is outed because of carrying a firearm as allowed by law, inside the capitol, and stating he was protected and protective of representative and others from assault by violent lawbreakers that assaulted the capitol, and an investigation is being demanded to determine if he carried the firearm into the chamber, which is a no-no under the house rules. Not pleased, as mentioned above. Throw the book at him. From where I sit he’s not exactly representing the will of the people that elected him. Another story I’d need more detail on. Also, the term “anarchist” gets thrown around all too freely anymore. I’m fine for his advocating impeachment, but the Bin Laden comment is way over the top. His suggestion that the POTUS be done away with(in any fashion) should be taken seriously as I’m sure at least a few of the rep’s followers might be just out of control enough being caught up in all the excitement of the riot to attempt that, whether directed at Pres. Trump, or anyone else in that building. Still not sure what is being meant by “outing” unless you’re meaning “booting out” or something along those lines.
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 15, 2021 7:26:09 GMT -8
I still don't understand how Trump incited an attack.
If we're going to use personal interpretations what chain of actions and words got people to rise up and storm the Capitol building?
Judges spend entire lives learning how to 'interpret' things.
Now we have wealthy, millionaire children making these decisions.
As Jordan Petersen said, all this younger generation don't understand how to put in the work to qualify or earn a position like that. They only understand power [which they receive through tech or sheer numbers is the implication]
If the dispensation of what is wrong and what is right is going to be dispensed by a bunch of wealthy children, how is that right in any way?
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Post by Stu on Jan 15, 2021 8:49:42 GMT -8
I still don't understand how Trump incited an attack.
If we're going to use personal interpretations what chain of actions and words got people to rise up and storm the Capitol building? Do you not have Google in Canada?
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 15, 2021 14:05:53 GMT -8
I still don't understand how Trump incited an attack.
If we're going to use personal interpretations what chain of actions and words got people to rise up and storm the Capitol building? Do you not have Google in Canada? Sure. Let's just shut down all chat forums because we can Google everything, right?
Yes, I have Google. I've read a few things but I'm curious to know how you all interpret what he said and did as incitement.
I'm not convinced yet that they were inciting people to violence.
I can probably find a zillion things on Twitter that are much easier to interpret as being inciting violence and they're all still on there.
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Post by steveinthecity on Jan 15, 2021 15:04:29 GMT -8
Do you not have Google in Canada? Sure. Let's just shut down all chat forums because we can Google everything, right? Yes, I have Google. I've read a few things but I'm curious to know how you all interpret what he said and did as incitement.
I'm not convinced yet that they were inciting people to violence.
I can probably find a zillion things on Twitter that are much easier to interpret as being inciting violence and they're all still on there. I think you have to give less weight to the specific words or any one specific message, but rather look at the reactions and results of those messages in whole. He may have never once stated “tear down the Capitol! Steal the Speaker’s podium!”, but he was posting words that his “followers” were reacting to, and he in turn continued to encourage or inflame the hostility that he could see(or read) happening each time he did. That’s why a term like “American Patriots” seems an odd choice to need any interpretation, but that’s because it’s devoid of any context by itself in those tweets. Pres. Trump had earlier released a video claiming the election had been stolen along with the attendant hyperbole that has been repeated ad nauseum which Twitter, FB, and YouTube all took down. He took to Twitter espousing more of the same, Twitter warned him again and subsequently suspended his account for 12 hours. He then used another account to continue tweeting which twitter then blocked/locked(made it temporarily unusable, whatever that’s called). When the suspension was lifted, he started again with the claims of election fraud and stoking the ire of his supporters at which time Twitter said “enough”. A handful of tweets don’t tell the story. You’d need to be watching q-anon and other extreme right wing group’s posts(on multiple platforms) in reaction and response, not just to the President, but to each other to see how the protest evolved into violence, encouraged by the President. I should note, there was never any attempt to tamp down the escalating tension before, during, or after.
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Post by Stu on Jan 15, 2021 15:55:55 GMT -8
Do you not have Google in Canada? Sure. Let's just shut down all chat forums because we can Google everything, right? Yes, I have Google. I've read a few things but I'm curious to know how you all interpret what he said and did as incitement. "You all"? Dude, there's 3 people on this chatboard and one of them is me. So you're curious what 2 people think? Is this the only chatboard you're able to currently post on? Well, either all that drinking killed your brain cells, or you don't want to see it.
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 15, 2021 16:04:58 GMT -8
Sure. Let's just shut down all chat forums because we can Google everything, right? Yes, I have Google. I've read a few things but I'm curious to know how you all interpret what he said and did as incitement.
I'm not convinced yet that they were inciting people to violence.
I can probably find a zillion things on Twitter that are much easier to interpret as being inciting violence and they're all still on there. I think you have to give less weight to the specific words or any one specific message, but rather look at the reactions and results of those messages in whole. He may have never once stated “tear down the Capitol! Steal the Speaker’s podium!”, but he was posting words that his “followers” were reacting to, and he in turn continued to encourage or inflame the hostility that he could see(or read) happening each time he did. That’s why a term like “American Patriots” seems an odd choice to need any interpretation, but that’s because it’s devoid of any context by itself in those tweets. Pres. Trump had earlier released a video claiming the election had been stolen along with the attendant hyperbole that has been repeated ad nauseum which Twitter, FB, and YouTube all took down. He took to Twitter espousing more of the same, Twitter warned him again and subsequently suspended his account for 12 hours. He then used another account to continue tweeting which twitter then blocked/locked(made it temporarily unusable, whatever that’s called). When the suspension was lifted, he started again with the claims of election fraud and stoking the ire of his supporters at which time Twitter said “enough”. A handful of tweets don’t tell the story. You’d need to be watching q-anon and other extreme right wing group’s posts(on multiple platforms) in reaction and response, not just to the President, but to each other to see how the protest evolved into violence, encouraged by the President. I should note, there was never any attempt to tamp down the escalating tension before, during, or after.
OK, that makes more sense to me now. I kept looking at clips of what happened and the Tweets he put out and didn't see anything in particular that I'd call 'inciting violence'
And to be honest, I still don't. It's a little weak IMO
You could take ALL of what you just typed out and simply give it a pass if it was either another president who didn't have the checkered past that Trump does OR just put the blame solely on the groups that incited the violence.
The Russia probe from 4 years ago is starting to look pretty weak. It's still developing but as docs get declassified (which is what I think Trump is trying to do) it's starting to look like a Clinton smear campaign and if you ask me, Trump has had to devote nearly as much energy in trying to clear up smear campaigns during his entire tenure as he has in just running the country.
I can understand just how he might feel.
You've probably read a lot of the insults I've been encountering on the CGC forums. Nearly all of it is made up or embellished but it takes a lot of effort to try to counter it.
And if you frame it properly (out of context with the intent of making me look like I'm an angry nut) then it can color everything you do aftewards.
Personally, I think that the Twitter / Social media bannings are a product of those smear campaigns or a part of them if big social media is in collusion with politics.
But that's the only reasonable explanation to me that I can see as to why Trump's Tweets would be INTERPRETED as inciting violence...and that is the key word Dorsey used - he INTERPRETED them that way...because that's not what they were literally saying.
And herein is the problem.
Who says Dorsey interprets things correctly? Well he does, because he is the one with access to the big Bible tied to the pulpit.
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Post by Stu on Jan 15, 2021 16:12:19 GMT -8
Sure. Let's just shut down all chat forums because we can Google everything, right? Yes, I have Google. I've read a few things but I'm curious to know how you all interpret what he said and did as incitement.
I'm not convinced yet that they were inciting people to violence.
I can probably find a zillion things on Twitter that are much easier to interpret as being inciting violence and they're all still on there. I think you have to give less weight to the specific words or any one specific message, but rather look at the reactions and results of those messages in whole. He may have never once stated “tear down the Capitol! Steal the Speaker’s podium!”, but he was posting words that his “followers” were reacting to, and he in turn continued to encourage or inflame the hostility that he could see(or read) happening each time he did. That’s why a term like “American Patriots” seems an odd choice to need any interpretation, but that’s because it’s devoid of any context by itself in those tweets. Pres. Trump had earlier released a video claiming the election had been stolen along with the attendant hyperbole that has been repeated ad nauseum which Twitter, FB, and YouTube all took down. He took to Twitter espousing more of the same, Twitter warned him again and subsequently suspended his account for 12 hours. He then used another account to continue tweeting which twitter then blocked/locked(made it temporarily unusable, whatever that’s called). When the suspension was lifted, he started again with the claims of election fraud and stoking the ire of his supporters at which time Twitter said “enough”. A handful of tweets don’t tell the story. You’d need to be watching q-anon and other extreme right wing group’s posts(on multiple platforms) in reaction and response, not just to the President, but to each other to see how the protest evolved into violence, encouraged by the President. I should note, there was never any attempt to tamp down the escalating tension before, during, or after. It wasn't just Twitter, of course. www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-trump-say-peacefully-patriotically-march-capitol-1561718%3famp=1
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