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Post by Buzzetta on Oct 27, 2022 4:52:06 GMT -8
The Chamberlain academic debate has had a fault line that has very rarely been addressed, although I once read a Paper by a brilliant USAWC Grad, that concluded the failure to share and convince the populace of the logic of position undermined TRUST. Would love to read it if you could point me toward it. |
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Post by barry on Oct 27, 2022 5:02:17 GMT -8
True. It started on 2/27/14 with the Russian invasion of Crimea. The world did nothing, this emboldened Putin and led to the current invasion of Ukraine. This is how the real world works. There are consequences for weakness, real or perceived. Consult your history books for countless analogs. If we sat around and did nothing, Putin would invade other countries and become more entrenched and dangerous. Conspiracy theories are just that, conspiracy theories. I'm sure someone out there is blaming "The Knights Templar" as well, but it doesn't mean I need to read their fevered ramblings. I agree with this. However, let us play Monday morning quarterback. How would things have played out if intervention was used? There are a few ways to look at this given the state of the world at the time. (Coming off of various economic crisis and the ongoing military presence in the Middle East.) It boils down to the debate on Neville Chamberlain. Did Chamberlain appease and / or acquiesce or did he do what he had to do with the understanding that England had to bide it's time until it was ready to respond with conviction? Great question and I like how you posited it. I think Chamberlain attempted diplomacy when severe warnings of military intervention and sanction were necessary. Was he playing chess to gain time before an eventual confrontation? I don't know but I suspect his approach wasn't that complex. The climate you mention would certainly have made intervention more difficult for the US. There were also the issues that prevented Ukraine from NATO consideration, namely massive corruption and the ability to defend itself and bring something of value to the alliance. A case could certainly be made that, given the level of political (and other) corruption, arms or monetary support could end up in the wrong hands. A likely US approach, given the Middle East involvement, might have been to strongly encourage Europe to take some responsibility for the bully in their own backyard. However this played out, someone needed to give Putin a bloody nose for Crimea. Imagine the effect of the massive sanctions we've recently shown we can erect having time to really dig in and take hold. Who knows, maybe shots wouldn't have needed to be fired at all. Maybe Europe would have seen the light a little earlier and reversed their energy dependence to an unstable dictator. All Monday morning quarterback, but interesting. I'll bet the Pentagon has gamed this a million times by now. |
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parker1865
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Post by parker1865 on Oct 27, 2022 5:18:45 GMT -8
Hello, Barry. Considering your conflating the Chamberlain Statesmanship Era with the present Ukraine Conflict, I gave in to temptation, to address your position that issues prevented Ukraine from NATO (and U.S.) consideration.
Can you share your opinion of the issues that existed between 2004 and 2010 that prevented acceptance of Ukraine into NATO during that time period?
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parker1865
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Post by parker1865 on Oct 27, 2022 6:28:44 GMT -8
True. It started on 2/27/14 with the Russian invasion of Crimea. The world did nothing, this emboldened Putin and led to the current invasion of Ukraine. This is how the real world works. There are consequences for weakness, real or perceived. Consult your history books for countless analogs. If we sat around and did nothing, Putin would invade other countries and become more entrenched and dangerous. Conspiracy theories are just that, conspiracy theories. I'm sure someone out there is blaming "The Knights Templar" as well, but it doesn't mean I need to read their fevered ramblings. The timeline is a little longer than that. It starts in 17 March 91, and the reform Movement. The attempted Coup in Aug 91 followed, and the secession of the Baltic States in Sept. 91, which eventually led to The Orange Revolution of 2004 placing NATO SUPPORTER Yushenko in power, instead of the USSR Puppet Yanuckovych, followed by the promises and wooing of the West Euro NATO partnerships (WITH THE FULL SUPPORT OF THE U.S). However, these promises were not kept, and by 2010, Communist Hardliner Yanukovych defeated Yushenko, ending the possibility of a NATO alliance. The Kremlin and Ukriane then signed a Gas Deal, and by doing so, the Soviet Navy was given a lease (meaning the SOVIETS NOW OWNED IT FOR AS LONG AS THEY WANTED), and Yanukovych exited talks with the EU, and immediately entered economic talks with Moscow. This was the beginning of the Kiev protests. I could continue up until now, BUT, I simply wanted to clear up the real start of the issue: the Failure of the Euro NATO Alliance and the U.S. to vote in Ukraine as a member between 2004 and 2010. Moscow has, since the Sept. 91 Secession, stated over and over and over, that it will eventually use Military Force to return Ukraine to its rightful owner: The Soviet Union. The point: the weakness AND CONSEQUENCES was and is the NATO Western Europe Alliance and the U.S. to consummate the partnership with Ukraine between 2004 and 2010, knowing that Moscow intended to invade. This is for any members that are interested and don't bother with childish ignore nonsense. In this Post, my last sentence was: "This is for any members that are interested and don't bother with childish ignore nonsense". I have received a warning from TCBF Mod1 that this is a violation since the ignore feature exists to prevent issues between members (I am paraphrasing, since it can be read by all),especially since the member- Barry- stated he was ignoring me and has not replied since, so it is some fashion of trolling. Fair enough. I am editing the Post, and assure Barry that trolling has not at all been the basis of my Posts that appear following a Post by you, or in a Thread by you. I will not again imply in a post that ignoring a member is childish, because such a statement can be considered trolling. I assume it is not trolling to post in a thread by any member, or that any other member has posted whether the member has the person on ignore or not. I assume this is correct, but these days, who knows. |
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Post by barry on Oct 28, 2022 4:20:28 GMT -8
Ukrainian forces are inching closer to Russian-controlled territory. See what the front line is like
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Post by barry on Oct 29, 2022 4:42:08 GMT -8
Finland, Sweden promise to join NATO together in united front to Turkey HELSINKI (Reuters) -Finland and Sweden will join NATO at the same time, their prime ministers said on Friday, presenting a united front to Turkey which has raised questions about both their applications. The Nordic neighbours asked to join the alliance in May in response to Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but ran into objections from Turkey which accused the two of harbouring groups it deems terrorists. Finnish Prime Minister Sanna Marin said on Friday Turkey's president had told her he had more questions for Sweden than for her country. But she said she would not leave Sweden behind in the process. "It is very important for us, of course, that Finland and Sweden would join NATO hand in hand," Marin told reporters at a joint press conference in Helsinki with her Swedish counterpart. Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan said as recently as Oct. 6 that his country still opposed Sweden's bid. Swedish Prime Minister Ulf Kristersson, who took office last week, said: "We have been taking every step, so far, hand in hand and none of us have any other ambition." He said he would meet Erdogan soon. "It's completely legitimate that Turkey gets confirmation that Sweden is doing what Sweden has committed to do within the framework of the agreement," he added. Swedish daily Aftonbladet on Friday cited sources saying that Turkey had invited Kristersson to a bilateral meeting in Ankara, probably on Nov. 8. Kristersson's spokesperson did not immediately respond to requests for a comment. (Reporting by Anne Kauranen in Helsinki and Simon Johnson in Stockholm editing by Anna Ringstrom and Andrew Heavens)
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Post by barry on Nov 7, 2022 5:28:23 GMT -8
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Post by vintagecomics on Nov 7, 2022 10:02:13 GMT -8
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parker1865
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Post by parker1865 on Nov 7, 2022 10:39:47 GMT -8
Gee, now if we could only do something about the constant continuing death spiral and destruction conflicts-all 9 of them-resulting in multi thousands of daily death in African Nations. For years. Maybe we can start with the latest squabble in Ethiopia (5,000+ dead this weekend).
Oh well, their Leaders aren't popular comedians with no political experience, so I can see concentrating on the Russo-Ukraine problem, to guide them to a peaceful coexistence.
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vs90
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Post by vs90 on Nov 7, 2022 11:55:02 GMT -8
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parker1865
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Post by parker1865 on Nov 7, 2022 12:21:58 GMT -8
The Land of Baloneyonia rumor mongering. $$$. Not one hair will be touched when $$$ are flowing into their coffers and keeping their fingers busy counting. |
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vs90
Advanced Noob
Joined: June 2019
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Post by vs90 on Nov 7, 2022 12:28:35 GMT -8
The Land of Baloneyonia rumor mongering. $$$. Not one hair will be touched when $$$ are flowing into their coffers and keeping their fingers busy counting. What money? Are you aware of the sanctions and seizures of assets? |
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parker1865
TCBF Member
Joined: September 2018
Posts: 1,325
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Post by parker1865 on Nov 7, 2022 13:00:11 GMT -8
The Land of Baloneyonia rumor mongering. $$$. Not one hair will be touched when $$$ are flowing into their coffers and keeping their fingers busy counting. What money? Are you aware of the sanctions and seizures of assets? No. I don't know any of that stuff. I apologize. |
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Post by barry on Nov 9, 2022 16:10:51 GMT -8
I'm with the Ukrainians, I don't believe a word the Russians say. I'll believe it when US satellites confirm the withdrawal (which may have already happened).
But if this is true, it's a huge blow to Putin.
Huge blow for Russia as it abandons key Ukrainian city of Kherson - BBC News
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Post by kav on Nov 9, 2022 16:32:23 GMT -8
I'm with the Ukrainians, I don't believe a word the Russians say. I'll believe it when US satellites confirm the withdrawal (which may have already happened). But if this is true, it's a huge blow to Putin. Huge blow for Russia as it abandons key Ukrainian city of Kherson - BBC News
i think its true putin would never admit a retreat if he didnt have to. |
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