Pressing Comics

{Spoiler}{Spoiler}Posted Friday at 11:40 PM (edited)
kramerarts

All I can say about this guy is....holy goosh, what a hot mess.

So, pull up a seat, this will take a while.

In early March, I bid on, and won, three auctions from this guy:

www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Panther-1-Four-KEYS-4-Issues-All-in-1-Auction-Jan-1977-Marvel-Comics-/173172841081?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&nma=true&si=h27Eu9oQBRIusaPpA0bWMZnhXas%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

www.ebay.com/itm/X-MEN-95-96-97-98-99-100-Key-LOT-NICE-Early-X-MEN-Wolverine-Marvel-Comics/391986235469?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

www.ebay.com/itm/X-MEN-102-103-104-105-106-107-108-109-110-111-Nice-LOT-Early-New-X-MEN-Marvel/391986237829?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Now, when I received the books, I was preparing for four weeks of convention madness. In the course of 4 weeks, I worked Wondercon (Mar 23-25), then Indiana Comicon (Mar 30-Apr 2), C2E2, including Diamond Retailer Summit (Apr 4-Apr 7), then Silicon Valley Comicon (Apr 8...yes, I flew from Chicago to LA on the 7th, drove from LA to San Jose the same day, and then went to the SVCC the next day...mainly because I'm crazy), and finally the Sac Anime Con last Sunday, April 15.

So...I didn't have time to thoroughly inspect the books. That's on me. But the guy had a 30 day return policy, so I knew I had some time, AND...well, there's more.

So, the Black Panther lot I was looking forward to, because the guy stated the books had lots of pressing potential, and I could take advantage of onsite grading at C2E2. What the seller "neglected" to mention, however, is that all four books had rusty staples.

:facepalm:

His initial response made me chuckle: "I don't remember seeing any rust on the staples, but I'll take your word for it. Sometimes staples come in darker shades due to the metal they were made from, so maybe take a closer look?"

meh

After assuring him that, yes, all four books had RUST to varying degrees, I told him I might still be able to work it out. I made him a proposition. I said I would do the press work necessary on the books (yes, between Indy and C2E2!), and if any books graded 8.0 or below...the "break even" grade...he would pay for slabbing and shipping (I was sitting at a business computer in Indianapolis at midnight or so, so I forgot to say "yes, and PRESSING ISN'T FREE") and I would send those back to him...any books that graded 8.5 or higher I would consider a "wash."

Nevermind that I should NOT have had to pay what I had to pay for the books anyways...the books had RUSTY STAPLES, and therefore sold for more than they would have had this been mentioned. I was giving him quite a deal. And, of course, he went for it. He sent me a suggestion that I'd never heard of for "removing" the rust:

"Oh and please keep my vibrating toothbrush secret between you and me. Certain areas may need more pressure and time, but be sure to remove all the dust that’s the key. I’ve done it many times and never been caught in grading, they look for scratches on cleaned staples....but a good vibrating tooth brush with soft bristles gets rid of 90% and sometimes all of the corrosion with no scratches because the bristles are unable to scratch and if anything they blend any leftover corrosion smooth scratch free."

If that's true...and I suspect it isn't, but who knows...then I believe that would result in a Restored or Qualified grade, with "staples cleaned" as the note. Note what the guy says: "I've done it many times and never been caught in grading." Uh huh.

So...why didn't this guy do it on these? He expects me to do restoration work for him, which he assures me "won't get caught"? I'll grant that he may not have seen the rust...which I doubt; it's completely obvious with the books in hand, and which the grader's notes attest...but then suggesting I do this work that was his responsibility in the first place? I tell him "no, the rusty staples are the whole reason for this exercise. I am neither qualified nor experienced to do such work, which would almost certainly result in a Qualified or Restored grade."

When I mentioned that he would have to pay for pressing, he flipped his lid, and jumped up and down, saying "you didn't say anything about that!!!"

To which I replied..."dude...yes, I didn't mention a cost for pressing, but you're going to get BETTER books back than you sent me, and you think that's free...? Do you think that's fair? Do you think that's equitable? That someone else do work for you, for which you are unwilling to compensate them?" And that, on top of wanting me to remove the rust, but offering nothing for the service?

He still wigged out, but apparently was able to control himself enough to agree to pay the horrendous $15/book charge I thought was MORE than fair.

Remember: the books weren't worth what they sold for in the first place, because all four staples were RUSTY. I SHOULD have just returned them, but...hey, I'm a sucker for a gamble.

In any event, I pressed them, they turned out really well....but the rusty staples killed them all. 8.0, 8.0, 8.5, and 9.0.

Notes:

8.5 - Light staple rusted
Tear top of back cover

9.0 - light staple rusted

8.0 - bindary tear bottom of back cover
light crease right bottom of front cover breaks color
light staple rusted
rust stain right center of back cover

8.0 - creasing lower right edge front cover breaks color
staple rusted

So, I write the guy back, and he says to send him the total cost for the two he agreed to. I had mentioned earlier that a partial refund might work, and he suggested $100, which I said would be fine, but let's wait for results. So he sends me a message, and I tell him to please wait until I got home. Instead of waiting, he just sends the $100 refund.

Ok, fine. Whatever.

But then...I have the chance to look over the REST of the books...and while the X-Men #102-111 lot was acceptable...barely...the #95-100 lot was not. He described it as "NICE!" and "They are all higher mid-grade to higher grade comics."..which I interpret as 7.0-9.0. Unfortunately, they're all about 5.0-8.0 (and #100 and #95, the most valuable, are 5.0-ish and 7.0-ish.) I explain to him that it doesn't make sense to pay MORE for raw books than the same books already slabbed, and I'd like to return them. I told him I'm sure he thought I was unreasonable, but that's how I look at it...and since it's my money, after all, I think that's pretty fair.

He says "sorry, yes you're unreasonable (shock!) and 30 days have passed. I will not accept a return."

Now...GRANTED...I passed the 30 day deadline. HOWEVER...it's not like I waited all this time and THEN contacted him. I contacted him on Mar 29...about 3 weeks after I got the box...but again, 1. I didn't expect there to be problems, as I'd communicated with this guy before, and 2. I was still, at that time, within his 30 days. And, I remained in contact with him throughout the process. Again, I acknowledge that I was now outside his 30 day "window"...but, if you claim to be concerned with having "100% customer satisfaction", why does that go out the door on day 31? I've had people contact me after 30 days...and you know what? I tell them to send it back.

In any event, that's when things got really ugly. I had, in the meantime, bid on and won two MORE lots from him, these:

www.ebay.com/itm/Justice-League-of-America-12-13-14-15-16-17-18-19-20-KEY-Lot-9-issue-Run-DC/391991906839?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

www.ebay.com/itm/Justice-League-of-America-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-KEY-Lot-10-issue-Run-DC/391991894698?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Now...the JLA #2-11 lot is acceptable...again, barely...but when I opened the box (again, just got home after being on the road for several weeks)...I discover that 1. JLA #12 and #13 aren't even in the box, and 2. despite assurances that all books were "complete", issue #15 has a page torn out.

None of these things, in and of themselves, is a big deal.

But ALL of them TOGETHER...?

This guy is a hot mess. And he claims he runs an "honest and quality operation."

meh

Anyhoo...I called eBay and asked them how to file a claim when some of the items are missing, and guess what? The only option I have if the seller won't cooperate is to send what I have received back. Yay. And now, of course, we're in the snarky back and forth messaging phase. And, I left negative feedback for the missing books, the overgraded books, and the rusty stapled Black Panthers, and just the general attitude...and, as usual, another seller calls in to eBay and cries to them to get two (so far) removed. I'll be calling back in the morning to have them reinstated.

There's no point in having a feedback system if sellers can convince foolish eBay agents to ignore eBay policy so easily. We'll see how successful I am.

I don't want to accuse the guy of outright fraud, because, really, I don't know his motives. But...rusty staples, won't accept a late return even with extenuating circumstances, 2 out of 9 books not even in the box, and a book with a page torn out...? And, on top of all of those "mistakes", cops an attitude about the whole thing?

This guy's either grossly negligent, or he's just fishing for suckers, overstating the conditions of his books, hoping for fools to bid more than the books are worth. "Honest", he is not.

{Spoiler}{Spoiler}In case anyone reading this wonders why CGC and other grading companies are not only important, but vitally necessary to the comics collecting hobby, here's a great example I thought I'd share with you all:

"<<AUTO REPLY>>

Ha! Ya gotta love it! Comic Geekdom at it's finest! Kudos. I see your point and I concur. As a professional musician who has toured the planet, I find it unsettling that terminal newsprint is given greater scrutiny than the flaws of the world. "

I got that answer from an eBay seller called "pop*culture*artifacts" when I wrote to them and said the "NM" Atom #17 wasn't quite as nice as he'd claimed.

His answer...clearly meant to be a "stock" answer to all those "comic geeks" out there who are "concerned about condition" is nothing but an expression of contempt.

"Hey, nerd, there are far worse problems in the world than the condition of your precious comic."

Are there...?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a wackjob who thinks comics, in and of themselves, are all that high on the important in life scale. They're not.

But what about principles...?

Isn't overstating the condition of an item you sell...and thus getting more money for it than you fairly deserve...just another form of stealing, of theft?

Of course it is. And isn't stealing one of the main "flaws" in the world?

You bet.

After all...this seller claimed the book was in "SPECTACULAR NEAR MINT CONDITION FROM MY PERSONAL COLLECTION." (His expression, not mine.)

And the book is certainly decent. It's probably an 8.0 to 9.0 as is. But "SPECTACULAR NEAR MINT"...? Not quite. And if I'm paying over 400 times cover price...I should think that earns me the right to get what is offered, no...?

For those of you who weren't buying in the bad old days, things were so, so much worse before CGC. For all the complaining about CGC...and they need to have their feet held to the fire, too, so they stay honest...things are ten thousand times better than they were before. In fact, without CGC, it's certainly possible the hobby would have completely died, as it almost did in the late 90's. There would be no $500,000 X-Men #1s, no $3,000,000 Action #1s, no $15,000 New Mutants #98s. The hobby would have stagnated, limped along as it was, maybe even collapsed entirely, because so very, very few could be trusted. There are people...to this day, in 2018...that STILL haven't recovered the value of the "high grade" AF #15s they bought as unrestored in the mid to late 90's, that have color touch, or slight trimming, or other forms of restoration. And that's despite the massive runup in the market since 2008.

If you wanted an accurately graded, premium quality book, you either had to offer literally ridiculous amounts of cash for one, or just completely luck out.

Back then...your choice really was to put up or shut up. Retailers controlled the market, and if you wanted your fix, you had to suck it up. For most of the time before CGC, there was no internet, so your local store...or expensive conventions...were your only choice. And not to say there wasn't choice...there was, and prices were a LOT cheaper than they are today. But the choices today are so far above and beyond what they were back then, it's really a whole different world. Now, you can scour eBay, Heritage, Comiclink, and the like, and get beautiful, premium quality books...and know that, 999 times out of 1,000, the book in the slab is not going to be a 7.5 masquerading as a 9.6, and you won't have to deal with smug, condescending sellers who tell you there are "more important things in life" while they gladly steal your money.

I am soooooo very thankful that I discovered pressing. That has been a lifesaver for me. In the past, I'd simply get angry and frustrated at these people stealing from collectors by lying about the condition of their items. Now, however, I can fix a lot of that, so it takes a lot of the sting out of it. The Atom #17 that "pop*culture*artifacts" sent me is fixable. I will do well with it, I think. It will eventually be graded, and hopefully will grade out to what the seller had advertised it as in the first place...but not without substantial effort put into it first.

Even still...I still fear leaving neutral (which is really a weak negative) or actual negative feedback. After all....there are people within this very CGC community...who understand perfectly well the value difference between conditions...who have turned on those of us who are not only seeking premium quality...but are willing to put our money where our mouths are, by actually paying for that premium quality. We're labeled "ultra picky" or "unpleasable" or worse, a fraud ourselves, who "extort" partial refunds from sellers, and then "crow about it" to others. We get harassed by sellers who either don't know what they're doing, or know precisely what they're doing, and the eBay feedback system is rendered useless by those who call in to have negative feedback removed. There are a TON of eBay sellers out there who have feedback profiles that are complete lies. And, of course, eBay itself will threaten buyers, not understanding the reality of the collectibles market, for "abusing the return system" (which, no doubt, does occur.)

And worse, there's retaliation, by sellers who were angered by honest feedback and use shill accounts to go after your own sales. So, most of the time, you end up saying nothing, out of very real fear.

And, lest I be accused elsewise, this does not come without some serious self-examination. "AM I being unreasonable? Am I grading these too harshly...? Am I being fair to this seller?" If I'm being honest, with myself and everyone else, I have to ask myself these questions. And, on occasion, that's been true, and I've had to deal with that. But, on the whole, the reason why CGC graded books in ultra high grade sell for the prices they do is because that's what people are willing to pay. They are WILLING to pay the $500, or $5,000, or $50,000 price for a $500, $5,000, or $50,000 QUALITY example. But they're not willing...and neither should they be....to pay $500 for a $50 quality copy, or $5,000 for a $100 quality copy.

I'm happy...thrilled...to pay you a 9.8 premium for a 9.8 quality book. I am NOT happy, nor should I be expected, to pay a 9.8 price for an 8.5 or 9.0 quality book. But the attitude of many, including some in the CGC community, is "shut up and take it. Don't create problems for us, or we'll create problems for YOU, capice...?"

And that's exactly why CGC exists.

So stand strong, high grade enthusiasts. Hold sellers to the fire. If you pay a premium, demand a premium item. Examine yourself. Learn everything you can. And don't be afraid to say "no, I'm not going to accept your inferior quality item at an inflated price, thanks."

And be very, very grateful that we live in a world in which CGC exists.

Edited Saturday at 06:49 PM by RockMyAmadeus
Today's Superman Secret Code: RT3-627Y