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Post by kav on Dec 13, 2023 14:11:53 GMT -8
Russia Has Lost Almost 90% of Its Prewar Army, U.S. Intelligence SaysWASHINGTON—The war in Ukraine has devastated Russia’s preinvasion military machine, with nearly 90% of its prewar army lost to death or injury, and thousands of battle tanks destroyed, according to a newly declassified U.S. intelligence assessment shared with Congress. The intelligence assessment, according to a congressional source, says that 315,000 Russian personnel have been killed or injured since the February 2022 invasion, or 87 percent of Moscow’s prewar force of 360,000. Russia has also lost nearly two-thirds of its tank force, or 2,200 out of its 3,500 preinvasion stock, the source said. While it is widely known that Russian President Vladimir Putin’s military has sustained vast losses in Ukraine, the assessment provides new details about the extent of those setbacks. The assessment was being made public as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky visits Washington to lobby for continued U.S. military assistance. Despite a major counteroffensive this year, Kyiv has been unable to claw back large chunks of its territory occupied by Russia. The U.S. has not released recent estimates of Ukrainian casualties, nor has the government in Kyiv. But Ukraine, with a significantly smaller population than Russia, has also lost tens of thousands of troops to death and injury, officials have acknowledged. Matthew Luxmoore contributed to this article. Write to Warren P. Strobel at Warren.Strobel@wsj.com I actually doubt this report, those numbers just make no sense. Just my uninformed opinion though. I am wondering if the 87% refers to active military at the onset of the invasion. That "could" be easier to accept if you put it in terms of the initial invasion force and not counting reservists, those recruited after the initial invasion or from other avenues of recruitment such as they had bolstered forces with prisoners. yes it refers to the prewar force not everything russia has pulled together since then.
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Post by Buzzetta on Dec 13, 2023 14:36:46 GMT -8
I am wondering if the 87% refers to active military at the onset of the invasion. That "could" be easier to accept if you put it in terms of the initial invasion force and not counting reservists, those recruited after the initial invasion or from other avenues of recruitment such as they had bolstered forces with prisoners. yes it refers to the prewar force not everything russia has pulled together since then. Yes. That I know. But prewar force is different from active military. Active military is a smaller number than prewar so I wonder if the qualifications for "prewar" are being lost in translation. Remember that Russia has mandatory military enlistment for I believe at least one year of service. Many of those troops are then considered reserves for a certain number of years. Their reserves would amount to a larger number than ours. I also do not know how long that mandatory service of one year to extends as a reservist.
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Post by kav on Dec 13, 2023 14:49:15 GMT -8
yes it refers to the prewar force not everything russia has pulled together since then. Yes. That I know. But prewar force is different from active military. Active military is a smaller number than prewar so I wonder if the qualifications for "prewar" are being lost in translation. Remember that Russia has mandatory military enlistment for I believe at least one year of service. Many of those troops are then considered reserves for a certain number of years. Their reserves would amount to a larger number than ours. I also do not know how long that mandatory service of one year to extends as a reservist. well they said prewar force so i assume they mean prewar force not active military.
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Post by barry on Dec 13, 2023 15:47:40 GMT -8
That wasn't an opinion piece, it's declassified US intelligence and is widely reported across all media. If I'm given a choice between believing this analysis, or some people posting in a comic book forum, I'm going to go with US intelligence every time. Here's some additional information: www.reuters.com/world/us-intelligence-assesses-ukraine-war-has-cost-russia-315000-casualties-source-2023-12-12/WASHINGTON, Dec 12 (Reuters) - A declassified U.S. intelligence report assessed that the Ukraine war has cost Russia 315,000 dead and injured troops, or nearly 90% of the personnel it had when the conflict began, a source familiar with the intelligence said on Tuesday. The report also assessed that Moscow's losses in personnel and armored vehicles to Ukraine's military have set back Russia’s military modernization by 18 years, the source said.
The Russian embassy referred a request for comment to the Russian defense ministry in Moscow. The ministry did not respond to requests for comment. Russian officials have said Western estimates of Russian death tolls in the war are vastly exaggerated and almost always underestimate Ukrainian losses, which Russian officials say are vast. The source spoke as Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy made a last-ditch plea for more military aid to U.S. lawmakers on Capitol Hill, where he faced a skeptical reception from key Republicans. At a news conference later in the day, U.S. President Joe Biden reaffirmed continued support to Zelenskiy, and warned lawmakers they risked handing a victory to Russia. The source said the recently declassified U.S. intelligence report assessed that Russia began its full-scale invasion of Ukraine in February 2022 with 360,000 personnel. Since then, the report found, 315,000 Russian troops, or about 87% of the total with which it started the war, have been killed or injured, the source said. Those losses are the reason Russia has loosened recruitment standards for deployment in Ukraine, the source added. "The scale of losses has forced Russia to take extraordinary measures to sustain its ability to fight. Russia declared a partial mobilization of 300,000 personnel in late 2022, and has relaxed standards to allow recruitment of convicts and older civilians," the assessment said, according to the source.The Russian army began the war with 3,100 tanks, lost 2,200 of them and has had to "backfill" that force with T62 tanks produced in the 1970s, leaving it only 1,300 tanks on the battlefield, the source quoted the report as saying. Kyiv treats its losses as a state secret and officials say disclosing the figure could harm its war effort. A New York Times report in August cited U.S. officials as putting the Ukrainian death toll at close to 70,000. Writing in the Ukrainian journal Tyzhden, historian Yaroslav Tynchenko and volunteer Herman Shapovalenko last month said Shapovalenko's Book of Memory project had confirmed 24,500 Ukrainian combat and non-combat deaths using open sources. The real figure was likely higher, they said. Reporting by Jonathan Landay; Additional reporting by Guy Faulconbridge in Moscow; Editing by Daniel Wallis, Bill Berkrot and Jonathan Oatis Our Standards: The Thomson Reuters Trust Principles.
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Cat
TCBF Member
Joined: October 2022
Posts: 238
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Post by Cat on Dec 13, 2023 18:06:59 GMT -8
The same US intelligence that said Saddam had WMDs?
I'm not into conspiracy theories or anything, it's just that the numbers we're talking about here seem far too high to be real.
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Post by vintagecomics on Dec 13, 2023 18:48:15 GMT -8
That wasn't an opinion piece, it's declassified US intelligence and is widely reported across all media. If I'm given a choice between believing this analysis, or some people posting in a comic book forum, I'm going to go with US intelligence every time. The US intelligence agencies are looking to be just as politically motivated these days as the politicians who run them. The proof is out there in the way they've handled the Hunter Biden Laptop story, the pandemic investigation in Wuhan, and even going as far back as how Trump and the Russian collusion investigation was handled. The handling of all of these high profile affairs have all been shown to be questionable, under scrutiny. I openly stated on the CGC forums, in the Watercooler, when we were discussing the Russian Collusion investigation in 2016 (which moderation allowed to go 40 or so pages without locking it) that US intelligence was politically motivated. I reasoned that there is NO WAY intelligence would be divulging any information about the collusion investigation to the public during the investigation, unless they were trying to make one side look better than another like a Legacy news company, and I was right. Intelligence was releasing information that made Trump look bad when in fact, the full investigation couldn't find him guilty of anything. And I did that BEFORE I became this interested in politics, which only really happened in 2020 due to the pandemic. I was basically politically blind at that point. I just used logic. Considering US intelligence agencies are a part of the largest financial complex in the world, the $1 Trillion US Military - Industrial complex, I think it's safe to say they are going to look after their own interests first, ahead of the interests of the people. Their dots just DON'T LINE UP anymore unless you see them through political lenses.
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Post by vintagecomics on Dec 13, 2023 18:52:39 GMT -8
The same US intelligence that said Saddam had WMDs? I'm not into conspiracy theories or anything, it's just that the numbers we're talking about here seem far too high to be real. Exactly. I even forgot to mention WMD. Canada stood AGAINST the USA on that war for the very reason that it was an illegal war and we were mocked for it. See? We're not that far off from each other once we remove emotions and just look at things logically. US Intelligence has a long history of not being honest with the people. Have you ever heard about Operation Northwoods from 1962? The Tuskagee Experiment whereby black people were allowed to stay infected by syphilis from 1932 - 1972, just to study them? Read up on those things and then tell me what you think. They're terrifying.
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Post by barry on Dec 13, 2023 18:54:23 GMT -8
The same US intelligence that said Saddam had WMDs? - Nope. Colin Powell's presentation to the UN Security Council was over 20 years ago. Those people are either retired, dead, or like Colin, both. I mean, you might as well discuss the Louisiana Purchase and how we ripped off France.
I'm not into conspiracy theories or anything, it's just that the numbers we're talking about here seem far too high to be real. - I get it, and that's fine. In my opinion, everything seen in this war supports those numbers. A Kleptocracy that throws wave after wave of poorly trained and outfitted soldiers against an adversary bristling with Western weapon systems is going to rack up some high casualty figures. But I'm no expert, you could be right, and there are reasons to question some of those figures.
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Post by Prince Namor on Dec 13, 2023 19:14:24 GMT -8
That wasn't an opinion piece, it's declassified US intelligence and is widely reported across all media. If I'm given a choice between believing this analysis, or some people posting in a comic book forum, I'm going to go with US intelligence every time. The US intelligence agencies are looking to be just as politically motivated these days as the politicians who run them. The proof is out there in the way they've handled the Hunter Biden Laptop story, the pandemic investigation in Wuhan, and even going as far back as how Trump and the Russian collusion investigation was handled. The handling of all of these high profile affairs have all been shown to be questionable, under scrutiny. I openly stated on the CGC forums, in the Watercooler, when we were discussing the Russian Collusion investigation in 2016 (which moderation allowed to go 40 or so pages without locking it) that US intelligence was politically motivated. I reasoned that there is NO WAY intelligence would be divulging any information about the collusion investigation to the public during the investigation, unless they were trying to make one side look better than another like a Legacy news company, and I was right. Intelligence was releasing information that made Trump look bad when in fact, the full investigation couldn't find him guilty of anything. And I did that BEFORE I became this interested in politics, which only really happened in 2020 due to the pandemic. I was basically politically blind at that point. I just used logic. Considering US intelligence agencies are a part of the largest financial complex in the world, the $1 Trillion US Military - Industrial complex, I think it's safe to say they are going to look after their own interests first, ahead of the interests of the people. Their dots just DON'T LINE UP anymore unless you see them through political lenses. The same FBI that found MORE e-mails of Hillary Clinton before the 2016 election? An election she then lost?
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Cat
TCBF Member
Joined: October 2022
Posts: 238
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Post by Cat on Dec 13, 2023 19:55:41 GMT -8
The same US intelligence that said Saddam had WMDs? - Nope. Colin Powell's presentation to the UN Security Council was over 20 years ago. Those people are either retired, dead, or like Colin, both. I mean, you might as well discuss the Louisiana Purchase and how we ripped off France.
I'm not into conspiracy theories or anything, it's just that the numbers we're talking about here seem far too high to be real. - I get it, and that's fine. In my opinion, everything seen in this war supports those numbers. A Kleptocracy that throws wave after wave of poorly trained and outfitted soldiers against an adversary bristling with Western weapon systems is going to rack up some high casualty figures. But I'm no expert, you could be right, and there are reasons to question some of those figures.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming to be an expert on anything either. Those numbers just strike me as being way too high, all things considered, that's all.
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Post by jsilverjanet on Dec 14, 2023 9:07:57 GMT -8
BINGO
Hunter Biden Laptop for the win!
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Post by barry on Feb 23, 2024 18:23:05 GMT -8
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Post by barry on Mar 23, 2024 9:33:13 GMT -8
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Post by barry on May 18, 2024 8:48:45 GMT -8
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Post by barry on May 19, 2024 16:26:17 GMT -8
This makes the most sense to me, especially the part about General Lapin.
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