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Post by kav on Mar 28, 2023 14:47:14 GMT -8
Free will is the ability to CHOOSE, not just the ability to DO. Just want you to know I haven't forgotten about you. There's a lot to unpack and I don't want to rush it. How is there free will if the atoms in our brains act predictably? |
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Post by kav on Mar 28, 2023 14:48:24 GMT -8
If a man is created without any senses (sight, sound, touch, smell, and taste) does he know that he exists?
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Post by vintagecomics on Mar 28, 2023 14:50:37 GMT -8
Long story short, it was extremely difficult for me to accept that I was likely misled and brainwashed and then when I let myself learn what the Bible was actually saying, my eyes opened up in a way they never had before and it changed my life. 20 years later, I'm still shedding a lot of my past but I'm so much further ahead now than I was even 5 years ago. The "Catholic / Religious" guilt I had was crushing me. I'm free of it now. I am sorry you dealt with "guilt" from your Catholic teachings - you were deceived, only taught HALF of what the Church fully teaches, just as Eve was deceived by the half-truths of the father of lies. NO person should be overwhelmed by guilt in Catholic teachings - if they are, then they were lied to, deceived and spiritually abused, not by the Catholic Church, but by particular "leaders" who failed, rather than the whole body of Christ's Church. If one is taught nothing but "sin, sin, sin, hell, punishment, damnation" (which it sounds like you were with 'fire and brimstone' preachers or pastors) then they are getting less than half of the message of the Church. "Mercy triumphs over justice." THAT is the full message of Christ and the Church. There is justice, yes. But there is also mercy through Christ that is greater than any sin anyone could feel "guilt" over - except for the refusal to accept Christ's mercy and humble oneself to Christ's authority. Again, I'm sorry you were "guilted" out of the Church, but you were lied to, given half-truths and not given pastoral comfort and mercy to draw you to repentance and union with the body of Christ in his Church. I called it "Catholic guilt" because that's the common phrase but it's really "religious guilt" because every religion, whether Catholicism, Protestantism or Islam all have the same effect. The guilt is a necessary component of religious teaching because religion is based on following rules . If you are taught you MUST do something (follow rules) to achieve redemption, you will necessarily fail (because nobody is perfect and everyone will be a breaker of religious law) and you WILL feel guilty. It's psychology 101. kav This is actually how Liberal ideology functions. They make you feel guilty for not doing enough...but it will never be enough. It's a bottomless pit that will never be filled with enough good works to satisfy you. They want to control every aspect of your lives to make sure you conform to their ideology. If you are taught to believe, it's an entirely different ideology and therefore an entirely different psychological mechanism. If you believe, your belief is enough to FILL YOU UP with peace and for you to do good. And if you DON'T believe, no harm done. No guilt, because it's irrelevant. This is very much the "conservative" way of thinking of less government, more independence and if you don't bother me I won't bother you. Faith and religion are two dichotomically opposed forces. They will never be the same. They can't be. They use different mechanisms and have entirely different outcomes. |
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Post by kav on Mar 28, 2023 14:51:28 GMT -8
If a blind man learns to tell the difference between a sphere and a cube by touching them, if he gains his sight, would he be able to tell the difference by looking at them?
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Post by vintagecomics on Mar 28, 2023 14:52:02 GMT -8
Just want you to know I haven't forgotten about you. There's a lot to unpack and I don't want to rush it. How is there free will if the atoms in our brains act predictably? Exactly. Every aspect of the universe acts as it is expected to. We just don't know the expectations but the universe, or God does. And that's all that matters. When you accept and trust that, everything changes. And this is how you find "peace that surpasses all human understanding" as the Bible calls it. |
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Post by kav on Mar 28, 2023 14:53:25 GMT -8
I am sorry you dealt with "guilt" from your Catholic teachings - you were deceived, only taught HALF of what the Church fully teaches, just as Eve was deceived by the half-truths of the father of lies. NO person should be overwhelmed by guilt in Catholic teachings - if they are, then they were lied to, deceived and spiritually abused, not by the Catholic Church, but by particular "leaders" who failed, rather than the whole body of Christ's Church. If one is taught nothing but "sin, sin, sin, hell, punishment, damnation" (which it sounds like you were with 'fire and brimstone' preachers or pastors) then they are getting less than half of the message of the Church. "Mercy triumphs over justice." THAT is the full message of Christ and the Church. There is justice, yes. But there is also mercy through Christ that is greater than any sin anyone could feel "guilt" over - except for the refusal to accept Christ's mercy and humble oneself to Christ's authority. Again, I'm sorry you were "guilted" out of the Church, but you were lied to, given half-truths and not given pastoral comfort and mercy to draw you to repentance and union with the body of Christ in his Church. This is actually how Liberal ideology functions. They make you feel guilty for not doing enough...but it will never be enough. It's a bottomless pit that will never be filled with enough good works to satisfy you. They want to control every aspect of your lives to make sure you conform to their ideology. liberals do not make conservatives feel guilty. they try but all we feel is amusement at their stupidity. |
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Post by kav on Mar 28, 2023 14:54:27 GMT -8
How is there free will if the atoms in our brains act predictably? Exactly. Every aspect of the universe acts as it is expected to. We just don't know the expectations but the universe, or God does. And that's all that matters. When you accept and trust that, everything changes. And this is how you find "peace that surpasses all human understanding" as the Bible calls it. except that according to quantum mechanics atoms do not act predictably. There is no way to tell for one example when a particular atom will decay into another element. |
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Post by vintagecomics on Mar 28, 2023 14:55:32 GMT -8
kav This is actually how Liberal ideology functions. They make you feel guilty for not doing enough...but it will never be enough. It's a bottomless pit that will never be filled with enough good works to satisfy you. They want to control every aspect of your lives to make sure you conform to their ideology. liberals do not make conservatives feel guilty. they try but all we feel is amusement at their stupidity. Just like religion does not make a true believer feel guilty.  They try but once you've transcended the little stuff it's meaningless. Religion necessarily leads into bondage. Faith necessarily leads into freedom. |
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Post by kav on Mar 28, 2023 14:55:38 GMT -8
The boss tells the employees, “the customer is always right.” The customer interrupts, “no, they’re not.”
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parker1865
TCBF Member
Joined: September 2018
Posts: 1,325
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Post by parker1865 on Mar 28, 2023 14:56:25 GMT -8
So many mainstream media reports are reporting 'woman kills-" I kept wondering why they dont say man or trans man the way they flat out call lia thomas a woman. Its because they are between a liberal rock and a hard place. They dont want to say trans man because they dont want to say anything negative about trans people. So they are forced to call her a woman. Or check out NBC strategy-do not mention sex of shooter at all. Freakin libs man.  www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/live-blog/nashville-school-shooting-tennessee-aftermath-live-updates-rcna76937Again, boys have a Penis. Girls have a Vagina. Sheesh...nothing difficult to figure out. |
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Post by vintagecomics on Mar 28, 2023 14:56:41 GMT -8
Exactly. Every aspect of the universe acts as it is expected to. We just don't know the expectations but the universe, or God does. And that's all that matters. When you accept and trust that, everything changes. And this is how you find "peace that surpasses all human understanding" as the Bible calls it. except that according to quantum mechanics atoms do not act predictably. There is no way to tell for one example when a particular atom will decay into another element. Or they don't act predictably based on our limited knowledge as humans. But to a being with perfect knowledge, everything would be predictable. Right? |
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Post by kav on Mar 28, 2023 15:13:18 GMT -8
except that according to quantum mechanics atoms do not act predictably. There is no way to tell for one example when a particular atom will decay into another element. Or they don't act predictably based on our limited knowledge as humans. But to a being with perfect knowledge, everything would be predictable. Right? according to quantum physics its not a matter of we just dont know enough to predict but that it is inherently unpredictable-that is why einstein did not believe in quantum mechanics, stating 'god does not play dice with the universe'. He was wrong. |
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Post by vintagecomics on Mar 28, 2023 15:55:14 GMT -8
Or they don't act predictably based on our limited knowledge as humans. But to a being with perfect knowledge, everything would be predictable. Right? according to quantum physics its not a matter of we just dont know enough to predict but that it is inherently unpredictable-that is why einstein did not believe in quantum mechanics, stating 'god does not play dice with the universe'. He was wrong. But if what we DON'T know far outweighs what we DO know, how do you know it's unpredictable?  |
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Post by kav on Mar 28, 2023 16:04:23 GMT -8
according to quantum physics its not a matter of we just dont know enough to predict but that it is inherently unpredictable-that is why einstein did not believe in quantum mechanics, stating 'god does not play dice with the universe'. He was wrong. But if what we DON'T know far outweighs what we DO know, how do you know it's unpredictable? dont laugh at me we're just having a discussion here. I cannot give you a lesson in quantum mechanics but the world actually changes based on what is observed. Everything at the quantum level is a probability wave. And dont snatch a sense of wonder from god. The wonder we can experience is a small inkling of the wonder god experiences at his creation and himself. Dont turn him into a stodgy 2 dimensional know it all being with nothing to wonder at. He created a world that can surprise and delight him-not some stodgy thing like a crossword puzzle thats already solved that he just stares at. God is much larger than people conceive and part of that is being an infinite consciousness that can still experience surprise and mystery. |
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Post by vintagecomics on Mar 28, 2023 16:08:21 GMT -8
But if what we DON'T know far outweighs what we DO know, how do you know it's unpredictable? dont laugh at me we're just having a discussion here. I cannot give you a lesson in quantum mechanics but the world actually changes based on what is observed. Everything at the quantum level is a probability wave. And dont snatch a sense of wonder from god. The wonder we can experience is a small inkling of the wonder god experiences at his creation and himself. Dont turn him into a stodgy 2 dimensional know it all being with nothing to wonder at. He created a world that can surprise and delight him-not some stodgy thing like a crossword puzzle thats already solved that he just stares at. God is much larger than people conceive and part of that is being an infinite consciousness that can still experience surprise and mystery. I'm not laughing at you. I'm laughing at US. At myself. Don't take it personally. You're the one stating that through Quantum physics we understand that atoms are unpredictable. I'm the one saying that the universe and it's laws are much larger than we can understand and therefore even what man thinks he understands will most likely be overturned. I've read works 20 years ago that explain how God might operate in multiple universes, dimensions and time streams. I'm not sure where you get that I'm making "him into a stodgy 2 dimensional know it all being". I'd never do that. |
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