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Post by kav on Mar 20, 2023 15:53:34 GMT -8
hate!
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Post by quantumcomics on Mar 21, 2023 6:14:40 GMT -8
hate! Its certainly not empathy or compassion is it.
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Post by vintagecomics on Mar 21, 2023 14:40:06 GMT -8
hate! I'm going to tee off this post to continue the discussion on Christianity / religion. While MANY if not MOST Christians believe that homosexuality is wrong according to 'The Bible', I believe that this is a misunderstanding of the Bible itself. There were MANY laws in the old law of Moses that applied to the people of Israel previous to AD, but those laws did not apply to the people around them. They only applied to Israelites and those that wanted to identify as Israelites. The reason? They were laws that were designed to preserve and populate their small nation. Some were for governance, some were for health reasons (like if you touch a dead thing you were considered unclean and had to quarantine to prevent the spread of germs) and some were to preserve and populate the 'nation of Israel'. Laws against homosexuality were likely primarily in place because the nation couldn't populate with same sex relationships. But here's the kicker: Those laws are no longer applicable to anyone who wants to be a 'Christian' or a 'believer'. They are obsolete. The only laws that matter are whether you have faith and to love your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. Many Christians still reach back into the Old Testament to convenient pull out these obscure, obsolete laws to defend their own preferences but they're doing so in a biased fashion because there are many other laws that they ignore. Like the one that says women are unclean if they have their periods and should not mingle in public when on them. Or the one that says eating pork or shellfish makes you unclean. Stuff like that. Christianity, the way I understand it, has no laws against what you can and can't do. It's not how Christianity is supposed to work. The only law you have is your conscience and God will judge you by it. And the only person you need to worry about is yourself It's God's job to worry about everyone else. If God needs your help, he's not God.
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Post by kav on Mar 21, 2023 14:41:46 GMT -8
hate! Christianity, the way I understand it, has no laws against what you can and can't do. It's not how Christianity is supposed to work. wht abt the 10 commandments?
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Post by vintagecomics on Mar 21, 2023 14:51:03 GMT -8
Christianity, the way I understand it, has no laws against what you can and can't do. It's not how Christianity is supposed to work. wht abt the 10 commandments? The oid laws of Moses, found in the Old Testament of which the 10 Commandments were a part of, were made obsolete by Jesus. There were about 700 of them (give or take) and they were to be strictly followed. These are the laws that many Religious Jews still live by to this day, which is why you see the ceremonies, the dress and hair styles and observance of the Sabbath, etc. Jesus (and Apostle Paul who Jesus commissioned later) stated numerous times that the Old Testament law could NEVER be fulfilled by man, because as soon as he broke ONE law, he was just as guilty as if he'd broken all of them. And since God can't have anyone imperfect in his presence, man would never be able to stand in God's presence if he just broke one law in his entire life. So God devised a way to make man look perfect in his sight. The purpose of sending Jesus was to "fulfill the law" - or live a 'perfect life', and that if we just believed that Jesus lived that 'perfect life' and we accepted him as God's son and a sacrifice on our behalf, God would accept your faith in Jesus as a fulfillment of the law. That's a very simplistic way to explain it but that's the gist of it according to my understanding.
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Post by jcjames on Mar 21, 2023 17:18:19 GMT -8
hate! ..... Laws against homosexuality were likely primarily in place because the nation couldn't populate with same sex relationships. But here's the kicker: Those laws are no longer applicable to anyone who wants to be a 'Christian' or a 'believer'. They are obsolete. The only laws that matter are whether you have faith and to love your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. .... Not according to Jesus. Or his Apostles. Unless you're trying to NOT include adultery, divorce or a whole host of other so-called "obsolete" moral laws that Jesus upheld? There were ceremonial laws (mixing fabrics, eating pork, work on sabbath, etc.) and moral laws (adultery, fornication, stealing, etc.). The ceremonial laws were fulfilled with the coming of Jesus, not to mention the destruction of the Temple. The moral laws remained, and Jesus referred to them often, upheld them, continued them and even expanded them (e.g. lust is adultery) in calling ALL people (not just Jews anymore) to repentance for transgressing the moral laws. If moral laws were rendered obsolete, then no one needs to repent for anything anymore. Live and do whatever you like... that's not the message of the Gospel or from any of the Apostles.
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Post by jcjames on Mar 21, 2023 17:41:18 GMT -8
hate! ... Christianity, the way I understand it, has no laws against what you can and can't do. It's not how Christianity is supposed to work. The only law you have is your conscience and God will judge you by it. And the only person you need to worry about is yourself It's God's job to worry about everyone else. If God needs your help, he's not God. Wow, that is... like nothing I've ever read in the New Testament! Jesus had a lot to say about discerning and upholding moral law, and demanding others do the same. And where did Jesus ever imply that each person's own conscience is the only law they have to follow?? That doesn't even make sense. If you love God, you will allow yourself to be transformed by him. Yet, if our conscience is "the only law" we have, unaffiliated with God's eternal moral laws, then we have become our own gods. IOW, idolatry.
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Post by kav on Mar 21, 2023 17:46:57 GMT -8
... Christianity, the way I understand it, has no laws against what you can and can't do. It's not how Christianity is supposed to work. The only law you have is your conscience and God will judge you by it. And the only person you need to worry about is yourself It's God's job to worry about everyone else. If God needs your help, he's not God. Wow, that is... like nothing I've ever read in the New Testament! Jesus had a lot to say about discerning and upholding moral law, and demanding others do the same. And where did Jesus ever imply that each person's own conscience is the only law they have to follow?? That doesn't even make sense. If you love God, you will allow yourself to be transformed by him. Yet, if our conscience is "the only law" we have, unaffiliated with God's eternal moral laws, then we have become our own gods. IOW, idolatry. If someone had their family tortured and killed would it be hard to love god?
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Post by vintagecomics on Mar 21, 2023 18:00:45 GMT -8
..... Laws against homosexuality were likely primarily in place because the nation couldn't populate with same sex relationships. But here's the kicker: Those laws are no longer applicable to anyone who wants to be a 'Christian' or a 'believer'. They are obsolete. The only laws that matter are whether you have faith and to love your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself. .... Not according to Jesus. Or his Apostles. Unless you're trying to NOT include adultery, divorce or a whole host of other so-called "obsolete" moral laws that Jesus upheld? There were ceremonial laws (mixing fabrics, eating pork, work on sabbath, etc.) and moral laws (adultery, fornication, stealing, etc.). The ceremonial laws were fulfilled with the coming of Jesus, not to mention the destruction of the Temple. The moral laws remained, and Jesus referred to them often, upheld them, continued them and even expanded them (e.g. lust is adultery) in calling ALL people (not just Jews anymore) to repentance for transgressing the moral laws. If moral laws were rendered obsolete, then no one needs to repent for anything anymore. Live and do whatever you like... that's not the message of the Gospel or from any of the Apostles. I know where you are coming from. My entire family comes from this school of thought and I understand it well. This discussion is much more detailed and there is a lot to unpack but I will try to simplify it for those who aren't really students of the Bible. The "message" depends on who is being spoken to, why it's being said and what the purpose is. Jesus preached to the CIRCUMCISED. Specifically, to the Jews. His message was for the Israelites. His message WAS NOT for non-Jewish people. After Jesus passed, there was a transition period. The Apostles began to branch out throughout the world and preach "The Gospel" but they only preached to JEWISH PEOPLE. At some point in the Book of the Acts, after Jesus had died, risen and was taken up, a few Gentiles (non Jewish people) converted and this led them to accept that the message was to be shared with Non-Jewish people. Apostle Paul was anointed as the "Minister to the uncircumcised" by all the other Apostles and they sent him forth to preach "The Gospel" to the Non-Jewish population. What is important to understand is that there is a divergence here. Over time Paul's message not only began to contradict the message of the other Apostles (faith vs works + faith) Paul came to become the greatest Apostle...so even said the other apostles. In fact, Paul himself states that many of the Apostles did not understand Paul's message of "redemption by faith" and he had to rebuke many of the churches for not understanding it. The message of "faith" is simple. You believe, you're clean. And if you believe and you're clean, you won't pursue harmful or evil things. To emphasize the last line of your post that I made bold, THAT IS EXACTLY THE MESSAGE when living by faith. It's how I raised my kids. I shared with them the consequences of their actions and let them make their own decisions...and guess what? They made good decisions. If I had warned them with fire and brimstone and commanded they listen to me they'd have done the exact opposite. That's how I've been living for over 20 years since I left my cult and I'd rather die than go back to that old den of bondage.
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Post by vintagecomics on Mar 21, 2023 18:07:13 GMT -8
... Christianity, the way I understand it, has no laws against what you can and can't do. It's not how Christianity is supposed to work. The only law you have is your conscience and God will judge you by it. And the only person you need to worry about is yourself It's God's job to worry about everyone else. If God needs your help, he's not God. Wow, that is... like nothing I've ever read in the New Testament! Jesus had a lot to say about discerning and upholding moral law, and demanding others do the same. And where did Jesus ever imply that each person's own conscience is the only law they have to follow?? That doesn't even make sense. If you love God, you will allow yourself to be transformed by him. Yet, if our conscience is "the only law" we have, unaffiliated with God's eternal moral laws, then we have become our own gods. IOW, idolatry. Allowing yourself to be transformed is very different than being told what to do and acting out of fear of consequences. One is walking by Faith. A Believer. The other is walking by Fear. A religious person. Apostle Paul clearly states that nothing is greater than God's grace. Nothing can outrun or outlast it. And nothing is out of his control. You're attributing things Jesus said that doesn't apply to Gentiles. He was speaking specifically to and for Jews. You can't take it all at face value. Apostle Paul was anointed by Jesus to go speak to the Gentiles. He was speaking specifically to and for Gentiles. You CAN take it all at face value.
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Post by kav on Mar 21, 2023 18:08:34 GMT -8
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Post by kav on Mar 21, 2023 18:11:42 GMT -8
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Post by jcjames on Mar 21, 2023 21:49:51 GMT -8
Not according to Jesus. Or his Apostles. Unless you're trying to NOT include adultery, divorce or a whole host of other so-called "obsolete" moral laws that Jesus upheld? There were ceremonial laws (mixing fabrics, eating pork, work on sabbath, etc.) and moral laws (adultery, fornication, stealing, etc.). The ceremonial laws were fulfilled with the coming of Jesus, not to mention the destruction of the Temple. The moral laws remained, and Jesus referred to them often, upheld them, continued them and even expanded them (e.g. lust is adultery) in calling ALL people (not just Jews anymore) to repentance for transgressing the moral laws. If moral laws were rendered obsolete, then no one needs to repent for anything anymore. Live and do whatever you like... that's not the message of the Gospel or from any of the Apostles. I know where you are coming from. My entire family comes from this school of thought and I understand it well. This discussion is much more detailed and there is a lot to unpack but I will try to simplify it for those who aren't really students of the Bible. The "message" depends on who is being spoken to, why it's being said and what the purpose is. Jesus preached to the CIRCUMCISED. Specifically, to the Jews. His message was for the Israelites. His message WAS NOT for non-Jewish people. After Jesus passed, there was a transition period. The Apostles began to branch out throughout the world and preach "The Gospel" but they only preached to JEWISH PEOPLE. At some point in the Book of the Acts, after Jesus had died, risen and was taken up, a few Gentiles (non Jewish people) converted and this led them to accept that the message was to be shared with Non-Jewish people. Apostle Paul was anointed as the "Minister to the uncircumcised" by all the other Apostles and they sent him forth to preach "The Gospel" to the Non-Jewish population. What is important to understand is that there is a divergence here. Over time Paul's message not only began to contradict the message of the other Apostles (faith vs works + faith) Paul came to become the greatest Apostle...so even said the other apostles. In fact, Paul himself states that many of the Apostles did not understand Paul's message of "redemption by faith" and he had to rebuke many of the churches for not understanding it. The message of "faith" is simple. You believe, you're clean. And if you believe and you're clean, you won't pursue harmful or evil things. To emphasize the last line of your post that I made bold, THAT IS EXACTLY THE MESSAGE when living by faith. It's how I raised my kids. I shared with them the consequences of their actions and let them make their own decisions...and guess what? They made good decisions. If I had warned them with fire and brimstone and commanded they listen to me they'd have done the exact opposite. That's how I've been living for over 20 years since I left my cult and I'd rather die than go back to that old den of bondage. I mean no offense, so I will not go into much detail, but I must correct at least a few of your errors here. It is simply untrue that Jesus' message was only for the Jews. If so, then no Gentile should listen to his word! That's not what you're saying is it?? It's also not true that Jesus only preached and called to Jews! The Samaritan woman at the well, the Samaritan leper, the Roman Centurion whose servant he healed and whose faith he marveled, the Syrophoenician woman whose daughter Jesus heals (and has a back and forth about children and dogs as well), and he traveled across the Sea of Galilee to the Gentile city of Gadarenes to minister and heal. Also, the Gospel of Mark (a disciple of St. Peter) was the earliest-written of the four Gospels and was directed at an audience of Roman Gentile-converts. Yes, Paul's missions were focused on the Gentiles - but that doesn't mean his was the only "gospel" intended to be preached to the Gentiles. And I will lay aside the Living-Faith (Faith + Works) vs Dead-Faith (Faith in thought/word only) issue because I don't believe there will be any headway made there - I believe you've made your mind up on that. I will say, however, that even Jesus warned against the sin of presumption - the error of believing that simply mouthing the magic words "I believe" will save oneself. For Jesus warned many would come to him declaring "Lord, Lord!" and they would be cast away because of their presumption of his grace... "only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" will be saved. He talks about "bearing fruit", being "doers" not just "hearers" - DOING not just believing, i.e. Faith-And-Works, not By-Faith-alone. I'm glad your kids turned out great - congrats on helping lead them to Christ. But "fire and brimstone" is NOT at all how or what I learned, nor is it all just a list of rules to "control" people - that's one of the many easy-to-want-to-hear lies told by the father of all lies. Sorry to hear you were shackled that way. There are a LOT of false prophets out there, prosperity-preachers, etc. It's all a choice to surrender FULLY to Christ in your heart, mind and body, AND to surrender to what Jesus commanded his Apostles to establish here on earth until he returns. I just think many people misinterpret Jesus, the Gospel, and certainly his Church. I can't tell you how many utterly wrong things I've heard people say about it all. It's knowing no one can remain continuously sinless, so we must always then remember to be continuously penitent as well. Our life is all a single moment of repentance and communion in the body of Christ, to glorify God. I don't want to drone on so far though. Maybe another time.
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Post by vintagecomics on Mar 22, 2023 15:13:53 GMT -8
I know where you are coming from. My entire family comes from this school of thought and I understand it well. This discussion is much more detailed and there is a lot to unpack but I will try to simplify it for those who aren't really students of the Bible. A) I mean no offense, so I will not go into much detail, but I must correct at least a few of your errors here. --------------- B) It's all a choice to surrender FULLY to Christ in your heart, mind and body, AND to surrender to what Jesus commanded his Apostles to establish here on earth until he returns. I just think many people misinterpret Jesus, the Gospel, and certainly his Church. I can't tell you how many utterly wrong things I've heard people say about it all. -------------- C) I don't want to drone on so far though. Maybe another time. A) Why would I get offended. We're having a discussion. Polite discussions don't offend me. B) There's NO such thing as free will. That concept only exists in people's imaginations. Your will is bound to the laws of physics, to your genetic and psychological predispositions and your surroundings. Guess who controls all of those things? The same guy who controls all things. C) It's not droning to me. We disagree because of the version of the bible you read. I've looked under the English words and found a completely different account than the popular accounts people accept as "Gospel" - pun intended.
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Post by jcjames on Mar 22, 2023 17:37:26 GMT -8
A) I mean no offense, so I will not go into much detail, but I must correct at least a few of your errors here. --------------- B) It's all a choice to surrender FULLY to Christ in your heart, mind and body, AND to surrender to what Jesus commanded his Apostles to establish here on earth until he returns. I just think many people misinterpret Jesus, the Gospel, and certainly his Church. I can't tell you how many utterly wrong things I've heard people say about it all. -------------- C) I don't want to drone on so far though. Maybe another time. A) Why would I get offended. We're having a discussion. Polite discussions don't offend me. B) There's NO such thing as free will. That concept only exists in people's imaginations. Your will is bound to the laws of physics, to your genetic and psychological predispositions and your surroundings. Guess who controls all of those things? The same guy who controls all things. C) It's not droning to me. We disagree because of the version of the bible you read. I've looked under the English words and found a completely different account than the popular accounts people accept as "Gospel" - pun intended. A) Excellent! B) We couldn't disagree more on free will. C) Thank you! You're fluent in Koine Greek, Hebrew and/or Aramaic? What translation do you refer to?
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