|
|
Post by kav on Mar 15, 2023 16:27:01 GMT -8
If this is a serious response and not a joke you will have to take back all that stuff about being imminently logical. It's sarcasm to prove my point and your logic tree is broken on this discussion. There is much more evidence to prove that the historical person of Jesus existed than there is that Kav exists, and yet I accept that Kav exists. So logically... OK, I've wasted enough time today posting here. Gotta move onto other things! In that case your claim of being logical is for the birds. Thats the goofiest argument I've ever heard. "You dont believe in the christian god? well I dont believe in you!" and thinking that is somehow an equivalent analogy. |
|
|
|
Post by jcjames on Mar 15, 2023 16:28:32 GMT -8
When a person is ultimately condemned to eternal separation from God ("hell" or death), there is no return. God accepts that decision or act of rejection by the person and there is no turning back from that. God finishes his judgement against him and from that point on, the person has no recourse. They have had THEIR rejection and separation from God made eternal in their heart. "Hardening his heart" is the accepting as permanent judgement the condemnation that comes from rejecting and separating from God. No-god did the separation. He hardened pharoah's heart. Its all on him. For all we know pharoah would have converted if god softened his heart. I definitely would want to be eternally separated from a dude like this god-pls. An analogy.... Pharoah distorted his own heart through his free will, rejecting God over and over, separating himself from God. At some point, God put his self-distorted heart into the oven to harden it like potter's clay. Just like at some point, we will all be put into the fires of "testing" to affix forever our hearts either self-conformed TO God, or self-distorted away from God. That God, sort of, publicly hardened Pharoah's heart, for all to see, was God using Pharoah AFTER he was already condemned. God hardened the heart that Pharoah had chosen to reject God, and used that for a better good. As an aside, this may also reeeally stretch back around to the OT, that our bodies and hearts and minds are not our own - they are created not by us but for us to share with God. God cooperates with us in our own creation, not forcing it, but if needed, reprimanding, teaching and ultimately judging our willingness to cooperate with him. If we want to reject him, we will be cutting ourselves off from life itself, since we did not give life to ourselves. And so we cannot simply do whatever we "feel" like doing with our bodies, hearts and minds - that's not our purpose. We are made in the image of God, spiritual beings with flesh and blood and mind and will - to return that back to God. Like Christ is the perfection of being what God intends for us, for giving and glorifying God and sharing his gifts. Not keeping our bodies, minds, souls and wills just for our own intentions and personal desires or fetishes. |
|
|
|
Post by kav on Mar 15, 2023 16:31:29 GMT -8
No-god did the separation. He hardened pharoah's heart. Its all on him. For all we know pharoah would have converted if god softened his heart. I definitely would want to be eternally separated from a dude like this god-pls. An analogy.... Pharoah distorted his own heart through his free will, rejecting God over and over, separating himself from God. At some point, God put his self-distorted heart into the oven to harden it like potter's clay. Just like at some point, we will all be put into the fires of "testing" to affix forever our hearts either self-conformed TO God, or self-distorted away from God. That God, sort of, publicly hardened Pharoah's heart, for all to see, was God using Pharoah AFTER he was already condemned. God hardened the heart that Pharoah had chosen to reject God, and used that for a better good. As an aside, this may also reeeally stretch back around to the OT, that our bodies and hearts and minds are not our own - they are created not by us but for us to share with God. God cooperates with us in our own creation, not forcing it, but if needed, reprimanding, teaching and ultimately judging our willingness to cooperate with him. If we want to reject him, we will be cutting ourselves off from life itself, since we did not give life to ourselves. And so we cannot simply do whatever we "feel" like doing with our bodies, hearts and minds - that's not our purpose. We are made in the image of God, spiritual beings with flesh and blood and mind and will - to return that back to God. Like Christ is the perfection of being what God intends for us, for giving and glorifying God and sharing his gifts. Not keeping our bodies, minds, souls and wills just for our own intentions and personal desires or fetishes. So pharoah's heart was already hardened therefore god hardened it. Sounds goofy. God: do better. |
|
|
|
Post by vintagecomics on Mar 15, 2023 16:54:53 GMT -8
It's sarcasm to prove my point and your logic tree is broken on this discussion. There is much more evidence to prove that the historical person of Jesus existed than there is that Kav exists, and yet I accept that Kav exists. So logically... OK, I've wasted enough time today posting here. Gotta move onto other things! In that case your claim of being logical is for the birds. Thats the goofiest argument I've ever heard. "You dont believe in the christian god? well I dont believe in you!" and thinking that is somehow an equivalent analogy. But I didn't say Kav doesn't exist. I said you DO exist even though I have less evidence that you exist than Jesus does. And visa versa, you believe I exist even though there is less evidence of my existence than Jesus. So what I'm saying is that if you accept me existence and I accept yours even though we've never met or seen each other, by logical extension it makes sense that you should at the very least CONSIDER that the historical record of Jesus existence is worth accepting. And just because you've never seen a miracle it doesn't mean they don't happen. I have experienced them. I had a Water cooler thread all about them once. |
|
|
|
Post by vintagecomics on Mar 15, 2023 17:00:41 GMT -8
No-god did the separation. He hardened pharoah's heart. Its all on him. For all we know pharoah would have converted if god softened his heart. I definitely would want to be eternally separated from a dude like this god-pls. An analogy.... Pharoah distorted his own heart through his free will, rejecting God over and over, separating himself from God. At some point, God put his self-distorted heart into the oven to harden it like potter's clay. Just like at some point, we will all be put into the fires of "testing" to affix forever our hearts either self-conformed TO God, or self-distorted away from God. That God, sort of, publicly hardened Pharoah's heart, for all to see, was God using Pharoah AFTER he was already condemned. God hardened the heart that Pharoah had chosen to reject God, and used that for a better good. As an aside, this may also reeeally stretch back around to the OT, that our bodies and hearts and minds are not our own - they are created not by us but for us to share with God. God cooperates with us in our own creation, not forcing it, but if needed, reprimanding, teaching and ultimately judging our willingness to cooperate with him. If we want to reject him, we will be cutting ourselves off from life itself, since we did not give life to ourselves. a) I don't believe "free will" exists. Our will is a "limited free will" with limitations. For example, if my will was truly free I'd be able to put it through a table without resistance. b) God specifically said he would harden Pharaoh's will AFTER pharaoh had already made his mind up about NOT releasing the slaves. So it was basically "Oh, you don't want to release the slaves and stop punishing them the easy way? Well then I will show you that you will do it the hard way." It's a punishment for not righting your own wrong, much like you punish someone based on them doing a premeditated crime. And the greater the offense, the greater the punishment. c) you CAN do what you want, with a limited will. But your will is limited by genetics, physics, your surroundings, psychology, etc. And you CERTAINLY CAN NOT do something God doesn't want done. So pharoah's heart was already hardened therefore god hardened it. Sounds goofy. God: do better. See my answer (b) above. |
|
|
|
Post by kav on Mar 15, 2023 17:05:31 GMT -8
In that case your claim of being logical is for the birds. Thats the goofiest argument I've ever heard. "You dont believe in the christian god? well I dont believe in you!" and thinking that is somehow an equivalent analogy. But I didn't say Kav doesn't exist. I said you DO exist even though I have less evidence that you exist than Jesus does. And visa versa, you believe I exist even though there is less evidence of my existence than Jesus. So what I'm saying is that if you accept me existence and I accept yours even though we've never met or seen each other, by logical extension it makes sense that you should at the very least CONSIDER that the historical record of Jesus existence is worth accepting. And just because you've never seen a miracle it doesn't mean they don't happen. I have experienced them. I had a Water cooler thread all about them once. Maybe I'm goofy but I believe talking to someone on the internet for years is far more evidence they exist than an ancient book written decades after the events. I have seen miracles what I havent seen is someone walking on water. |
|
|
|
Post by vintagecomics on Mar 15, 2023 18:29:15 GMT -8
But I didn't say Kav doesn't exist. I said you DO exist even though I have less evidence that you exist than Jesus does. And visa versa, you believe I exist even though there is less evidence of my existence than Jesus. So what I'm saying is that if you accept me existence and I accept yours even though we've never met or seen each other, by logical extension it makes sense that you should at the very least CONSIDER that the historical record of Jesus existence is worth accepting. And just because you've never seen a miracle it doesn't mean they don't happen. I have experienced them. I had a Water cooler thread all about them once. Maybe I'm goofy but I believe talking to someone on the internet for years is far more evidence they exist than an ancient book written decades after the events. I have seen miracles what I havent seen is someone walking on water. Sure but I have no idea if you are who you say you are or just another zodislove. But I believe you're a real person named Kav even though I personally have never seen proof. But from all the clues I've picked up after interacting with you I can tell you're real (or at least by my best guess you are). Also, from the Jesus side I don't ascribe to all the religious stuff most churches but I still believe he was a real person 2000 years ago. The walking on water stuff? I've seen stuff with water happen, while other people have witnessed it happen to me that don't even believe in Jesus, that forces me to believe that miracles are real. Now whether you think I'm honest, delusional or whatever is up to you to decide....but we've interacted for many years and I know you don't think I'm lying. So... |
|
|
|
Post by kav on Mar 15, 2023 18:36:32 GMT -8
Maybe I'm goofy but I believe talking to someone on the internet for years is far more evidence they exist than an ancient book written decades after the events. I have seen miracles what I havent seen is someone walking on water. Sure but I have no idea if you are who you say you are or just another zodislove. But I believe you're a real person named Kav even though I personally have never seen proof. But from all the clues I've picked up after interacting with you I can tell you're real (or at least by my best guess you are). Also, from the Jesus side I don't ascribe to all the religious stuff most churches but I still believe he was a real person 2000 years ago. The walking on water stuff? I've seen stuff with water happen, while other people have witnessed it happen to me that don't even believe in Jesus, that forces me to believe that miracles are real. Now whether you think I'm honest, delusional or whatever is up to you to decide....but we've interacted for many years and I know you don't think I'm lying. So... No I believe you-I've seen  I wont evn post because I would get mocked for it. |
|
|
|
Post by kav on Mar 15, 2023 18:53:30 GMT -8
How about this-does God need man? Did he create us to fill some need, or was it just like a hobby?
|
|
|
|
Post by jcjames on Mar 15, 2023 19:54:41 GMT -8
How about this-does God need man? Did he create us to fill some need, or was it just like a hobby? To glorify God and enjoy his love. He created everything as an expression of himself and us to share his love. |
|
|
|
Post by kav on Mar 15, 2023 20:10:03 GMT -8
How about this-does God need man? Did he create us to fill some need, or was it just like a hobby? To glorify God and enjoy his love. He created everything as an expression of himself and us to share his love. So he needs us. He needs something to love. Does it go any deeper? Does he enjoy watching a reality instead of just nothing? I mean before he created us it was just him and nothing. why does he need to be glorified though? |
|
|
|
Post by kav on Mar 15, 2023 20:15:49 GMT -8
And does he ever wonder "man where did I come from anyway?" It seems like that would be a burning question. He didnt create himself.
|
|
|
|
Post by jcjames on Mar 15, 2023 20:28:12 GMT -8
To glorify God and enjoy his love. He created everything as an expression of himself and us to share his love. Does it go any deeper? Does he enjoy watching a reality instead of just nothing? I mean before he created us it was just him and nothing. why does he need to be glorified though? No, not really. In the Trinity, the Father loves the Son, and the love shared between them is the Holy Spirit. The Trinity of God is like nothing else, and all words and metaphors fall short and fail to capture the depth, uniqueness, completeness and perfection of the Trinity. If God needed, he wouldn't be God. God does desire us to share in his love though. |
|
|
|
Post by kav on Mar 15, 2023 20:32:13 GMT -8
So he needs us. He needs something to love. Does it go any deeper? Does he enjoy watching a reality instead of just nothing? I mean before he created us it was just him and nothing. why does he need to be glorified though? No, not really. In the Trinity, the Father loves the Son, and the love shared between them is the Holy Spirit. The Trinity of God is like nothing else, and all words and metaphors fall short and fail to capture the depth, uniqueness, completeness and perfection of the Trinity. If God needed, he wouldn't be God. God does desire us to share in his love though. So he made us for a hobby then. |
|
|
|
Post by jcjames on Mar 15, 2023 20:36:49 GMT -8
To glorify God and enjoy his love. He created everything as an expression of himself and us to share his love. So he needs us. He needs something to love. Does it go any deeper? Does he enjoy watching a reality instead of just nothing? I mean before he created us it was just him and nothing. why does he need to be glorified though? It becomes quickly and crushingly humbling to realize that God has a unique and eternally-directed love for you, kav. Since God is outside of creation, not bound by time or space, not confined to experiencing us as we slowly slog our way through the days of our life, but instead God is ever-present, and every moment in "our time" God is fully present with us, even though we have already lived through some moments of the past, and as we experience this current moment, and have X number of moments of mortal life left on earth. It doesn't matter to God, since he exists outside of time to experience every single moment with us that we experience in "our time". God doesn't have to "wait" for us. To him, he is with us at every moment of our life, all at once. |
|
I wont evn post because I would get mocked for it.