New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples)

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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) May 15, 2016 7:53:46 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 15, 2016 7:53:46 GMT -8

All twenty books I just got back have some degree of wave at the top.

This goes away when I squeeze the middle of the case together between the book and the barcode.

Three of them have also have a wave at the bottom. :facepalm:

The case is loose at the bottom on those three and when I squeeze the middle of the case together the wave at the bottom goes away too.

When I look at the cases from the side the top front is bowed up.

I tried to take a picture of it but it's hard to make out.

There is no question that if the case was locked together between the top of the book and barcode the wave issue would go away.

Ditch Fahrenheit
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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) May 17, 2016 16:27:14 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 17, 2016 16:27:14 GMT -8

CGC Forum link

Haven't been able to follow thread, and had a question. I am about to crack open some new slabs, and noticed on all 3 of the books are jammed up top against the label to the point you can't see the top edge of the book very well. Is this a problem that has already been brought up?

Oh dear lord. Hope you put up . Oh and yes I'm sure someone has mentioned this earlier on

+1 ...Yes, please post pics of books before and after cracking these out if possible. We're an attentive audience.

Sorry, super busy, almost forgot to check on this. Here are the 3 slabs in question, they all have that same problem.

I can't tell if they were slabbed this way, or they all shifted during shipping.

Just now noticed BRC, it looks like a piece of plastic got stuck in there during encapsulation.

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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) May 18, 2016 10:43:08 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 18, 2016 10:43:08 GMT -8

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Exactly. To anyone who has taken the time to look...it's pretty obvious.

I have something like 23 examples of the waviness problem here .

You can tell by the newton rings on many of them "exactly" where the mylar is and is not touching the case (in the waviness at the top of the book).

Just two examples:

This one's a really big pic.

SPOILER: Click to show

Last Edit: May 18, 2016 10:47:52 GMT -8 by Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit
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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) May 18, 2016 10:49:33 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 18, 2016 10:49:33 GMT -8

CGC Forum link

Also...

Do you know what this is?

Yes..yes...it's an ugly set of newton rings that obscures exactly the parts of the comic book that we want to see.

But do you know what else it is?

Answer: It's a pressure map, visually represented in newton rings.

You'll notice there isn't much clamping force at the top of the book.

Catch my drift?

Ditch Fahrenheit
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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) May 18, 2016 10:52:05 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 18, 2016 10:52:05 GMT -8

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Lessening the pressure at the top may be a way to alleviate the risk of the cover separating from the interior in the "mylar" design.

Lessening the pressure (anywhere) makes it more likely the book can shift in an impact, increasing risk of cover separation.

The only way I see to reduce the newton rings in this new design is to lessen the pressure. hm

Bingo.

And your subsequent post is probably a bingo as well.

With this design, there's an inverse relationship between the goals, thereby making them mutually exclusive.

Newton Rings
|
|
Increase
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|
Pressure
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Decrease
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|
SCS (and probably waves)

Last Edit: May 18, 2016 10:53:13 GMT -8 by Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit
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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) May 18, 2016 10:55:05 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 18, 2016 10:55:05 GMT -8

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I have a genuine question that bridges both topics.

I've heard of books being pressed with people forgetting to remove the microchamber paper from the books, leaving an impression on the book where the microchamber paper was.

Will the pressure by these new cases create a similar problem when microchamber paper is used in the new holder?

Legit question.

The first batch I received of the new slabs had several that looked like the scan below. Notice a white or discolored line that runs vertically along the right side of the book. At first I thought it was my scanner, but then realized it's the an outline of the micro-chamber paper inside the the book.
In hand it's very easy to see and on the DD 37 below you can even make out the actual corner and top edge of the paper as well. It shows up much better on darker covers. There is a tiny void at the edge of the paper where the cover stock falls down away from the mylar (or mylar and cover away from the slab).

SPOILER: Click to show

Last Edit: May 18, 2016 11:01:31 GMT -8 by Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit
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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) May 21, 2016 1:44:17 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 21, 2016 1:44:17 GMT -8

Harshen Response to Shifted Books

The three books posted by Mastrcntrlprogram were received in the mail yesterday. There is clear evidence of damage to the tops of the holders not visible in the scans. The books certainly did not leave CGC looking like this, and they arrived safely to the submitter after we shipped them to him. Although the books are shifted in the holders, they were not damaged. This is the only movement we've been notified on for all the books shipped the past six weeks. We have gotten two other orders of damaged holders in this period, but in both cases the books did not move, and were not damaged. Here are pics of one of those orders.

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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) May 21, 2016 1:47:16 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 21, 2016 1:47:16 GMT -8

Matt Nelson's 3rd Official Response

We are following this thread closely and are also keeping in contact with our submitters each week, and will continue to do so. We appreciate any feedback whether it is positive, negative or neutral. We are aware there have been some issues with a small percentage of our new holders and have made adjustments to our process to address them. The new holder design requires an entirely different approach to encapsulation -- contending with the wide array of comics’ sizes, thicknesses, cuts and conditions. As with many new product launches we have experienced some unforeseen challenges with a limited number of books and have made the necessary refinements to provide our customers with the best product. Attached are images of books coming off our line yesterday afternoon, which reflect these improvements. If you are not satisfied with your CGC encapsulated book, please contact CGC customer service at 877-662-6642 or email bmcmanus@cgccomics.com. Thank you for your patience and feedback during this process. We remain committed to improving as a company and doing what is in the best interest of the hobby.

Last Edit: May 21, 2016 2:10:23 GMT -8 by Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit
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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) May 21, 2016 2:12:05 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 21, 2016 2:12:05 GMT -8

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Okay, folks. I just picked up my batch of 7 reholders. These were reholdered for free due to excessive Newton rings on the new case. They were originally encapsulated prior to the "fix" at the end of April.

Working on scans now...

BEFORE:

AFTER:

BEFORE:

AFTER:

BEFORE:

AFTER:

BEFORE:

AFTER:

BEFORE:

AFTER:

BEFORE:

AFTER:

BEFORE:

AFTER:

Last Edit: May 21, 2016 2:35:22 GMT -8 by Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit
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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) May 23, 2016 4:33:53 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 23, 2016 4:33:53 GMT -8

CGC Forum link

Also...

Do you know what this is?

Yes..yes...it's an ugly set of newton rings that obscures exactly the parts of the comic book that we want to see.

But do you know what else it is?

Answer: It's a pressure map, visually represented in newton rings.

You'll notice there isn't much clamping force at the top of the book.

Catch my drift?

This photo further illustrates this point, and why the pressure is almost entirely on the sides and (to a lesser extent) bottom of the book.

The holder is bowed, as I suspected.

Also, see my prior comments on "Creep Engine."

Last Edit: May 23, 2016 5:14:31 GMT -8 by Ditch Fahrenheit

Ditch Fahrenheit TCBF Member Joined: April 2013 Posts: 15,618	New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) May 23, 2016 7:39:50 GMT -8 Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 23, 2016 7:39:50 GMT -8 CGC Forum link - My post relaying FB discussion on waviness and pressure.

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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) May 27, 2016 18:27:57 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 27, 2016 18:27:57 GMT -8

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My Analysis

I'll make this as short as possible, since I know most people don't appreciate long posts.

This new case has three killer defects:

1) Newton Rings obscuring visibility
2) Damage from Accordion Effect (Waviness)
3) High-Pressure Holder Design

The first two have been talked to death, so I won't go into them. And I won't address a fourth possibly fatal flaw at all since we don't have enough data yet - ink lift from high-pressure Mylar contact. But the third is actually my biggest concern because the damage is immediate. It is also currently the proximate cause of the first two.

Remember those poly bags where the seam leaves an indentation down the entire book? Imagine the light forces involved in creating that defect. Now consider the considerable force necessary to prevent shaken comic syndrome (SCS) and book shift while in transit.

I don't want to turn this thread into a pressing argument, but a qualified presser employs several techniques to avoid crushing the entire book while he removes pressable defects. A qualified presser can do this without stressing the staple areas or removing that beautiful spine bloom that everyone talks about. He can also take great care with older, slightly brittle books. By design, this new case cannot avoid those areas. Nor can it avoid the ledge formed by the undersized MicroChamber paper (MCP) inside the covers. As soon as the book is encapsulated, it experiences these forces across the entire book surface. And as we've seen from the Pressure Map, the highest forces are currently along the spine and opposing side of the book.

There are ways to mitigate/eliminate the newton rings (coatings and roughened surfaces). There are also ways to mitigate/eliminate the Accordion Effect (pressure uniformity). But the design chosen cannot escape the High Pressure Holder problems, no matter how much tweaking is employed. Even with 100% pressure uniformity, the high points of the book will always experience the most pressure. This is a killer flaw in the design.

Ditch Fahrenheit
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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) Jun 2, 2016 6:42:57 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Jun 2, 2016 6:42:57 GMT -8

Harshen Blames Waviness on CCS Pressing

We would like to thank everyone for their feedback on CGC's new holder. The overwhelming majority of this feedback has been positive and many customers have expressed to us that the new holder's optics and construction are a significant improvement for the hobby.

Our customers also made us aware of a few minor issues, including a slight wavy appearance on a small percentage of submissions. We reacted immediately to this feedback by conducting a thorough investigation of the cause, which we have identified and rectified. We learned that a majority of the wavy books had gone through CCS prior to CGC and that a recent CCS process change, when combined with the new holder, was producing the unanticipated waviness. We addressed the situation with a minor modification to the CCS process and do not anticipate that this issue will reoccur at any point in the future.

In a few instances, there may have been other factors that caused a slight wavy appearance. However, based on the careful inspection of the encapsulated books we are producing and the feedback that we have received, we are confident that we have addressed those issues, as well.

It is important to note that no books have been damaged whatsoever. If anyone thinks they have a holder that exhibits a slight wavy appearance, CGC would be happy to evaluate it and, if we agree with your assessment, reholder your book at no charge, as well as cover your shipping expenses. If we feel that reholdering is not warranted, we will still cover your shipping expenses. Any such returns will receive Fast Track service.

Innovation often comes with unexpected challenges. A major manufacturing upgrade is particularly difficult and unfortunately, despite months of testing, a few minor issues were missed. CGC is committed to providing the best products and services. We therefore responded quickly to the feedback we received to determine the cause of the issue and address it.

CGC will continue to serve as the hobby's innovator, having established itself as the first, most respected and largest third-party grading service, with over 3 million books graded. We will always stand by our services and do the right thing for our customers and the hobby.

We look forward to seeing many of you this weekend at Wizard World Philadelphia. As we will be grading onsite, all attendees will have an opportunity to view our new holder and we welcome any additional feedback from you.

Ditch Fahrenheit
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New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) Jun 2, 2016 15:57:10 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Jun 2, 2016 15:57:10 GMT -8

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My 2c

I believe what we are seeing here is nothing more than an aversion to the the Osborn Effect .

This holder is fatally flawed because of the high pressure design that was initially chosen to reduce SCS and improve production rates after Barex was no longer available. The newton rings and waves are a consequence of that design, but probably pale in comparison to the damage the pressure itself can create. I believe CGC is fully aware of ALL of this at this point. How could they not be?

I'm guessing they will eventually come out with New Case Version 2.0 which will incorporate an air gap between the inner liner and the outer case just like the prior holder and their competition. I believe this will take them many months, and possibly even a year to accomplish. Because of this, they cannot announce a new holder, nor can they halt production or their cash flow will dry up while their customers either go to the competition or wait it out. They are now caught between a rock and a hard place, much like the books that are squashed in their new holder. Unfortunately, this means the burden and cost of this mistake falls squarely on the backs of CGC's most loyal customers.

Again, just my opinion. :foryou:

Ditch Fahrenheit TCBF Member Joined: April 2013 Posts: 15,618	New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples) Jun 2, 2016 20:57:54 GMT -8 Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Jun 2, 2016 20:57:54 GMT -8 First Proof of Waviness Not Being Fixed As Promised by CGC

New Case Discussion Thread (Sequential Examples)

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 15, 2016 7:53:46 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 17, 2016 16:27:14 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 18, 2016 10:43:08 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 18, 2016 10:49:33 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 18, 2016 10:52:05 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 18, 2016 10:55:05 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 21, 2016 1:44:17 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 21, 2016 1:47:16 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 21, 2016 2:12:05 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 23, 2016 4:33:53 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 23, 2016 7:39:50 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on May 27, 2016 18:27:57 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Jun 2, 2016 6:42:57 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Jun 2, 2016 15:57:10 GMT -8

Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Jun 2, 2016 20:57:54 GMT -8