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Post by steveinthecity on Jan 17, 2021 14:03:21 GMT -8
2020 Democratic Socialist Convention in Atlanta This is amazing.
Jordan Petersen has some great points about how the left inevitably turns on itself over time because they always splinter into so many different groups (much like the church I was raised in kept splitting and splitting) while the right tends to be more unified on larger issues and don't sweat the smaller stuff.
He bases it all on biology and psychology as that is what we're a product of.
I’m not sure if I’d have walked out on that two minutes in or would have just sat in the back sipping off a flask and being entertained. i kind of agree on the point of greater concern over smaller stuff or “niche” issues. Doesn’t make those issues any less valid in my mind, but they can be a distraction from something ostensibly of greater importance to the majority.
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 17, 2021 15:59:01 GMT -8
This is amazing.
Jordan Petersen has some great points about how the left inevitably turns on itself over time because they always splinter into so many different groups (much like the church I was raised in kept splitting and splitting) while the right tends to be more unified on larger issues and don't sweat the smaller stuff.
He bases it all on biology and psychology as that is what we're a product of.
I’m not sure if I’d have walked out on that two minutes in or would have just sat in the back sipping off a flask and being entertained. i kind of agree on the point of greater concern over smaller stuff or “niche” issues. Doesn’t make those issues any less valid in my mind, but they can be a distraction from something ostensibly of greater importance to the majority.
I think a lot of the niche issues like the anxiety or ADHD that prevents people in that group from being able to stand things like clapping are self induced out of a cycle where they have been 'protected' from conflict and offense and 'tough living'.
A prime example is the pandemic we're fighting.
Older people who have been through hard times (let's say people who lived through WW2 or Viet Nam) are likely the MOST susceptible to Covid and yet apparently many of them are the least afraid of it. I can't explain how many times I've heard older people say 'eff it, I'm just going to live my life' and they don't cower in fear from the virus.
Conversely, I can't even number how many young people are absolutely terrified of this thing and are staying indoors or religiously following sanitizing measures, etc, EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE THE LEAST to worry about it.
Why is that? The theory goes that these kids have never really had to struggle with anything in life. They've been handed trophies at sports games even when they lost, they're all taught that they're 'special' and that they can be anything they imagine (absolutely not true) and they have no learned to deal with either disappointment or opposition that won't go their way no matter how hard they scream or cry.
So they are fearful of something that people who have been through traumatic experiences wouldn't be.
This psychologically does two things in my opinion.
1) it causes them to LOOK for problems and burdens because I believe we're naturally predisposed to expect them - hence all the micro niche problems being identified and 2) it prevents them from being able to function if the game is not rigged in their favor
Thankfully, even though I was raised in a pretty easy going time period, I was raised in a challenging family setting and was always taught about the life my folks left behind (communist rule with an iron fist) and so I don't view the world through sugar coated lenses.
But these kids? There is no way to make them realize that difficulty in life - REAL difficulty, not just not being able to have the cell phone you want in the color you want, builds character, resilience and a different outlook on life.
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Post by steveinthecity on Jan 17, 2021 18:37:15 GMT -8
I think a lot of the niche issues like the anxiety or ADHD that prevents people in that group from being able to stand things like clapping are self induced out of a cycle where they have been 'protected' from conflict and offense and 'tough living'. I couldn’t agree more. Interesting to hear this as I haven’t noticed it myself or heard it brought up on any news, talk shows, or podcasts I’ve listened to. I’m not really around many teenagers though, so not getting to see much firsthand. I’d be curious to hear the perspective of school teachers on the differences they see in the kids now vs. then. I have heard employers bemoan the quality of job seekers of high school or college age in that there’s a lower work ethic than previous generations and also the kids(employees) have higher expectations not at all in line with their position and experience.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the phone thing, but someone born in the 2000’s isn’t going to look at cell phones with the same appreciation or wonder as do older adults(I’m generalizing here).
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parker1865
TCBF Member
Joined: September 2018
Posts: 1,325
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Post by parker1865 on Jan 18, 2021 8:27:36 GMT -8
I think a lot of the niche issues like the anxiety or ADHD that prevents people in that group from being able to stand things like clapping are self induced out of a cycle where they have been 'protected' from conflict and offense and 'tough living'. I couldn’t agree more. Interesting to hear this as I haven’t noticed it myself or heard it brought up on any news, talk shows, or podcasts I’ve listened to. I’m not really around many teenagers though, so not getting to see much firsthand. I’d be curious to hear the perspective of school teachers on the differences they see in the kids now vs. then. I have heard employers bemoan the quality of job seekers of high school or college age in that there’s a lower work ethic than previous generations and also the kids(employees) have higher expectations not at all in line with their position and experience. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the phone thing, but someone born in the 2000’s isn’t going to look at cell phones with the same appreciation or wonder as do older adults(I’m generalizing here). my thoughts: one glaring difference is civics is not taught and has not been for many years. the fist place i learned, outside of home, that endorsed evaluating the trust and the plan of the the elected official to make choices based on the good of the country as a whole. when is the last time that happened? i endorse the comment by roy of older generations that do not have the level of fear that seems prevalent. yes, it is, i agree, because they have lived through tough times and are not fatalistic concerning the final outcome (we are all gonna die) of a crisis. forgive me for what could be interpreted as a rebel response, but the teachers of today are not the source of an opinion that can be supported as meaningful. their hands are tied. the unions/municipalities/education curricula are questioned as either politically motivated and/or economically motivated or race based motivated. the teachers are forced to be biassed, and avoid any factual analysis on a social level that would be seen as a rebel response. i don't think the cell phone generalizing is far off the fact. it is suspect though, not because of being a wonder, but because of privacy/advertisement/cost, to name a few. older generations are very strong advocates of privacy and not having others do things for them, meaning the government. my thoughts on the younger generation, say 5-35/40, is that there is a definite awareness of world events, and in general are much more educated for the it age than my generation ever was, and in general are the recipients of an expellant building block of stem education than we ever were prepared for. we were not prepared, not because science and technology and engineering and math were unknown to us, or the chance to aspire to same was not blocked; it was much more simple than that. the college education route was seen as being for the privileged kids and there were very few in percentage. there was an over the top emphasis on practical matters such as homemaking skills, basic math for a job...carpentry, factory, auto mechanics, etc. we were in the industrial age and workers were needed. we had our moments of awe, of course, like going to the moon, the nuclear u.s. navy, but in general, compared to the present generation, we are points, plugs and distributor being compared to electronic sensing devices. but, know what we can still do? fix older engines, repair and maintain our homes without instruction manuals from lowes, use multiple tools and know what they are for, and for damn sure play a better game of marbles.
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 18, 2021 9:01:42 GMT -8
Interesting to hear this as I haven’t noticed it myself or heard it brought up on any news, talk shows, or podcasts I’ve listened to. I’m not really around many teenagers though, so not getting to see much firsthand. I’d be curious to hear the perspective of school teachers on the differences they see in the kids now vs. then. I have heard employers bemoan the quality of job seekers of high school or college age in that there’s a lower work ethic than previous generations and also the kids(employees) have higher expectations not at all in line with their position and experience.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the phone thing, but someone born in the 2000’s isn’t going to look at cell phones with the same appreciation or wonder as do older adults(I’m generalizing here).
These are all personal anecdotes so take it with a dash of salt.
I live in a town with 2 universities and a college so we have a HUGE college population. Also, I have 4 kids and 2 step kids. Also, I'm single and dating again so I'm interacting with a LOT of people from various age groups.
I can almost unequivocally say, across the board, that in my experience younger generations (Gen Y and Z) treat this virus so seriously that many won't even go outdoors for anything. There's a fear or a terror to it.
There are a few exceptions as there always are - I find European kids that came from tougher upbringings (like Serbians where I'm from where those generations would have been exposed to war in the late 90's / early 2000's) almost laugh it off and don't care too much.
But it seems that children who grew up facing little risk in life are incapable of handling the thought of any risk being out there right now.
Meanwhile, it's also my experience that older generations while they accept the pandemic as serious and take the necessary precautions have come to accept risk as a part of regular life and continue to do things as normally as possible without worrying too much. Their mindset seems to be 'if it's my time to go, then so be it'
It's a very interesting observation I made during this pandemic.
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Post by steveinthecity on Jan 18, 2021 10:52:15 GMT -8
my thoughts: one glaring difference is civics is not taught and has not been for many years. the fist place i learned, outside of home, that endorsed evaluating the trust and the plan of the the elected official to make choices based on the good of the country as a whole. when is the last time that happened? i endorse the comment by roy of older generations that do not have the level of fear that seems prevalent. yes, it is, i agree, because they have lived through tough times and are not fatalistic concerning the final outcome (we are all gonna die) of a crisis. forgive me for what could be interpreted as a rebel response, but the teachers of today are not the source of an opinion that can be supported as meaningful. their hands are tied. the unions/municipalities/education curricula are questioned as either politically motivated and/or economically motivated or race based motivated. the teachers are forced to be biassed, and avoid any factual analysis on a social level that would be seen as a rebel response. Wasnt thinking of published or public opinions, just wondering how teachers viewed changes in kids over the years. Nothing official. Disappointing kids don’t have a Civics or American Gov’t class any longer. I would hope there’s still some school curriculums or lesson plans still in play from years ago, though. Those are nice examples about the differences then vs. now. Could the end of the “Cold War” be a big difference maker? I wonder how a belief that nuclear war was almost a foregone conclusion at some point influenced us compared to children born in the 90’s or later? Fwiw, I never learned how to play marbles.
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Post by Stu on Jan 18, 2021 11:08:07 GMT -8
I couldn’t agree more. Interesting to hear this as I haven’t noticed it myself or heard it brought up on any news, talk shows, or podcasts I’ve listened to. I’m not really around many teenagers though, so not getting to see much firsthand. I’d be curious to hear the perspective of school teachers on the differences they see in the kids now vs. then. I have heard employers bemoan the quality of job seekers of high school or college age in that there’s a lower work ethic than previous generations and also the kids(employees) have higher expectations not at all in line with their position and experience. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the phone thing, but someone born in the 2000’s isn’t going to look at cell phones with the same appreciation or wonder as do older adults(I’m generalizing here). my thoughts: one glaring difference is civics is not taught and has not been for many years. the fist place i learned, outside of home, that endorsed evaluating the trust and the plan of the the elected official to make choices based on the good of the country as a whole. when is the last time that happened? i endorse the comment by roy of older generations that do not have the level of fear that seems prevalent. yes, it is, i agree, because they have lived through tough times and are not fatalistic concerning the final outcome (we are all gonna die) of a crisis. forgive me for what could be interpreted as a rebel response, but the teachers of today are not the source of an opinion that can be supported as meaningful. their hands are tied. the unions/municipalities/education curricula are questioned as either politically motivated and/or economically motivated or race based motivated. the teachers are forced to be biassed, and avoid any factual analysis on a social level that would be seen as a rebel response. i don't think the cell phone generalizing is far off the fact. it is suspect though, not because of being a wonder, but because of privacy/advertisement/cost, to name a few. older generations are very strong advocates of privacy and not having others do things for them, meaning the government. my thoughts on the younger generation, say 5-35/40, is that there is a definite awareness of world events, and in general are much more educated for the it age than my generation ever was, and in general are the recipients of an expellant building block of stem education than we ever were prepared for. we were not prepared, not because science and technology and engineering and math were unknown to us, or the chance to aspire to same was not blocked; it was much more simple than that. the college education route was seen as being for the privileged kids and there were very few in percentage. there was an over the top emphasis on practical matters such as homemaking skills, basic math for a job...carpentry, factory, auto mechanics, etc. we were in the industrial age and workers were needed. we had our moments of awe, of course, like going to the moon, the nuclear u.s. navy, but in general, compared to the present generation, we are points, plugs and distributor being compared to electronic sensing devices. but, know what we can still do? fix older engines, repair and maintain our homes without instruction manuals from lowes, use multiple tools and know what they are for, and for damn sure play a better game of marbles. Marbles? the only thing marbles are good for are ammo in slingshots.
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Post by Stu on Jan 18, 2021 11:11:31 GMT -8
my thoughts: one glaring difference is civics is not taught and has not been for many years. the fist place i learned, outside of home, that endorsed evaluating the trust and the plan of the the elected official to make choices based on the good of the country as a whole. when is the last time that happened? i endorse the comment by roy of older generations that do not have the level of fear that seems prevalent. yes, it is, i agree, because they have lived through tough times and are not fatalistic concerning the final outcome (we are all gonna die) of a crisis. forgive me for what could be interpreted as a rebel response, but the teachers of today are not the source of an opinion that can be supported as meaningful. their hands are tied. the unions/municipalities/education curricula are questioned as either politically motivated and/or economically motivated or race based motivated. the teachers are forced to be biassed, and avoid any factual analysis on a social level that would be seen as a rebel response. Wasnt thinking of published or public opinions, just wondering how teachers viewed changes in kids over the years. Nothing official. Disappointing kids don’t have a Civics or American Gov’t class any longer. I would hope there’s still some school curriculums or lesson plans still in play from years ago, though. Just for reference that curriculum may be (may have been) regional. We never had a Civics or American Gov't class in our high school in the 80s.
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Post by steveinthecity on Jan 18, 2021 12:13:39 GMT -8
Wasnt thinking of published or public opinions, just wondering how teachers viewed changes in kids over the years. Nothing official. Disappointing kids don’t have a Civics or American Gov’t class any longer. I would hope there’s still some school curriculums or lesson plans still in play from years ago, though. Just for reference that curriculum may be (may have been) regional. We never had a Civics or American Gov't class in our high school in the 80s. Interesting. Can I ask, regarding American History, how recent or up to date were your textbooks or was the info given to you by teachers? Our history stopped more or less around the start of WW2. Everything I knew about Korea I learned from M*A*S*H and I was out of High School before I ever knew about Japanese internment camps. Edit: My American Gov’t classes in the 80’s weren’t so much about history as they were about structure, procedure, or process of Gov’t and the court system.
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parker1865
TCBF Member
Joined: September 2018
Posts: 1,325
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Post by parker1865 on Jan 18, 2021 12:43:26 GMT -8
my thoughts: one glaring difference is civics is not taught and has not been for many years. the fist place i learned, outside of home, that endorsed evaluating the trust and the plan of the the elected official to make choices based on the good of the country as a whole. when is the last time that happened? i endorse the comment by roy of older generations that do not have the level of fear that seems prevalent. yes, it is, i agree, because they have lived through tough times and are not fatalistic concerning the final outcome (we are all gonna die) of a crisis. forgive me for what could be interpreted as a rebel response, but the teachers of today are not the source of an opinion that can be supported as meaningful. their hands are tied. the unions/municipalities/education curricula are questioned as either politically motivated and/or economically motivated or race based motivated. the teachers are forced to be biassed, and avoid any factual analysis on a social level that would be seen as a rebel response. Wasnt thinking of published or public opinions, just wondering how teachers viewed changes in kids over the years. Nothing official. Disappointing kids don’t have a Civics or American Gov’t class any longer. I would hope there’s still some school curriculums or lesson plans still in play from years ago, though. Those are nice examples about the differences then vs. now. Could the end of the “Cold War” be a big difference maker? I wonder how a belief that nuclear war was almost a foregone conclusion at some point influenced us compared to children born in the 90’s or later? Fwiw, I never learned how to play marbles. absolutely, the cold war era had a lot to do with it. but not for the reasons one would think. we have not touched on the war in viet nam. for 10 years, no qualified young male in the u.s. could establish a life plan with any certainty, because the draft was always looming. always. your work life was interrupted. your college years were interrupted. your parents were on pins and needles, it was ww2 all over again: would the child come home in a zip bag and/or broken? for the returning troops, coming home was not even close to the ww2 troop coming home. the viet nam vet was despised. the quaint picture painted in the history books and documentaries concerning the era, was the young people coming together and the march on washington to end the vn war, and/or kent is always brought up. what is left out, is the self-protective aspect of the protests....those still eligible for the draft were worried to death they would be drafted, and end up dying and/or, end up like so many vets that turned to alcohol and drugs. just as a very small example, and apropos of nothing, i didn't start smoking until after the hospital. it was a crutch. it was easy to get mj, heroin, cocaine etc. i was a rare breed. i never used drugs. anyway, i was at a philatelic show in d.c. i, and many others, were smoking in line. a gentleman about my age started dramatically coughing behind me. it was meant to be annoying(1980). one of the 3 persons that was with me was also smoking, and a vn vet. he was a part owner of the browns. he became a little irritated, and commented to the man that he was certain the coughing man was just as concerned about his health when he was in vn. the coughing man replied "....oh, one of them...". this was 5 years after the end of the war. it is just an illustration of the us against them aspect that is never discussed. the nuclear war threats, while diminished by the calming of the cold war era, was still present, because the terrorist movement in europe and the middle east was a dirty bomb waiting to happen. but, it was not such a scary event on our shores, and was not interpreted by society as a war that endangered the young people, because the draft had ended, and the social emphasis became peace and tolerance and getting along. what it didn't do was disrupt the lives of vets and their families for generations that still suffer. i expect that social pain will end when the vn era vets have died. there will not be any remembrances of glory, as there was and is with the ww2 vet. the ww2 vet were not baby killers, and were not carpet bombing poor defenseless framers and spraying chemicals to ruin their food source for decades (never mind the incredible toll on vets exposed to it....no small number.) i do not feel, and have not experienced from others, that the bitterness of the vn vet has ever been assuaged by some nice ice cream or a donut. i think it caused a societal break that still exists. yes, the middle east was and is a hellhole for the military that serve there (and continue to serve). the difference is they were not drafted, they had control of their lives and future, and patriotism was the call, and in a high percentage that patriotism was fueled by their fathers/uncles/grandfathers/brothers that served in vn. after all, society in the u.s. has not marched on the capitol and protested in colleges and universities and marched on d.c. with the same fervent end the war theme of the vn era, or treated these dedicated vets with discourtesy. quite the opposite. however, the threat of nuclear war is still present, and there are many world leaders that would institute same with the right provocation. i just don't see the present generation as worried about it at all. they believe there will be everlasting peace in their time. i hope so. i really do. but my advice would be to keep those pills ready and the proper mask ready and easily accessible. and question our world leaders, because their agenda is not always in our interest.
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Post by steveinthecity on Jan 18, 2021 12:59:33 GMT -8
Wasnt thinking of published or public opinions, just wondering how teachers viewed changes in kids over the years. Nothing official. Disappointing kids don’t have a Civics or American Gov’t class any longer. I would hope there’s still some school curriculums or lesson plans still in play from years ago, though. Those are nice examples about the differences then vs. now. Could the end of the “Cold War” be a big difference maker? I wonder how a belief that nuclear war was almost a foregone conclusion at some point influenced us compared to children born in the 90’s or later? Fwiw, I never learned how to play marbles. absolutely, the cold war era had a lot to do with it. but not for the reasons one would think. we have not touched on the war in viet nam. for 10 years, no qualified young male in the u.s. could establish a life plan with any certainty, because the draft was always looming. always. your work life was interrupted. your college years were interrupted. your parents were on pins and needles, it was ww2 all over again: would the child come home in a zip bag and/or broken? for the returning troops, coming home was not even close to the ww2 troop coming home. the viet nam vet was despised. the quaint picture painted in the history books and documentaries concerning the era, was the young people coming together and the march on washington to end the vn war, and/or kent is always brought up. what is left out, is the self-protective aspect of the protests....those still eligible for the draft were worried to death they would be drafted, and end up dying and/or, end up like so many vets that turned to alcohol and drugs. just as a very small example, and apropos of nothing, i didn't start smoking until after the hospital. it was a crutch. it was easy to get mj, heroin, cocaine etc. i was a rare breed. i never used drugs. anyway, i was at a philatelic show in d.c. i, and many others, were smoking in line. a gentleman about my age started dramatically coughing behind me. it was meant to be annoying(1980). one of the 3 persons that was with me was also smoking, and a vn vet. he was a part owner of the browns. he became a little irritated, and commented to the man that he was certain the coughing man was just as concerned about his health when he was in vn. the coughing man replied "....oh, one of them...". this was 5 years after the end of the war. it is just an illustration of the us against them aspect that is never discussed. the nuclear war threats, while diminished by the calming of the cold war era, was still present, because the terrorist movement in europe and the middle east was a dirty bomb waiting to happen. but, it was not such a scary event on our shores, and was not interpreted by society as a war that endangered the young people, because the draft had ended, and the social emphasis became peace and tolerance and getting along. what it didn't do was disrupt the lives of vets and their families for generations that still suffer. i expect that social pain will end when the vn era vets have died. there will not be any remembrances of glory, as there was and is with the ww2 vet. the ww2 vet were not baby killers, and were not carpet bombing poor defenseless framers and spraying chemicals to ruin their food source for decades (never mind the incredible toll on vets exposed to it....no small number.) i do not feel, and have not experienced from others, that the bitterness of the vn vet has ever been assuaged by some nice ice cream or a donut. i think it caused a societal break that still exists. yes, the middle east was and is a hellhole for the military that serve there (and continue to serve). the difference is they were not drafted, they had control of their lives and future, and patriotism was the call, and in a high percentage that patriotism was fueled by their fathers/uncles/grandfathers/brothers that served in vn. after all, society in the u.s. has not marched on the capitol and protested in colleges and universities and marched on d.c. with the same fervent end the war theme of the vn era, or treated these dedicated vets with discourtesy. quite the opposite. however, the threat of nuclear war is still present, and there are many world leaders that would institute same with the right provocation. i just don't see the present generation as worried about it at all. they believe there will be everlasting peace in their time. i hope so. i really do. but my advice would be to keep those pills ready and the proper mask ready and easily accessible. and question our world leaders, because their agenda is not always in our interest. Well said. You know, it was amazing to me when someone brought up a year or so back that there were service members serving in Afghanistan that possibly weren’t even born when the conflict began. I don’t think most people even think about it, which is unfortunate.
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parker1865
TCBF Member
Joined: September 2018
Posts: 1,325
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Post by parker1865 on Jan 18, 2021 16:15:10 GMT -8
yes, it is amazing. consider that between 2001-2018, 7,000+ u.s military deaths. 3.000 + in afghanistan alone. can somebody explain to me what we received in return? the whole thing would not have happened, but it did, thanks to charlie wilson, and a potus that had the most dufus advisors since eisenhower and kennedy, and listened to them, and believed them.
consider, though, the viet nam war, 1955-1975, 58,000 + u.s military deaths. we have premier mayer, general salan, premier mendes, eisenhower, dulles, and charles wilson (not to be confused with charlie wilson), who, combined, made some of the most incredibly stupendously wrong political and military conclusions in history. this fine group of thinkers, are in total responsible for over 3 million + total deaths in the conflict, all told, during that period. good job. i would also appreciate what we received in return for that booboo.
yet, what do we do? we exceeded stupid, and entered the middle east. why? because we didn't learn a darn thing from viet nam, and we did not pay attention to the soviet experience in the middle east.
there we go again....relieving the french from their stupidity and relieving the british from their stupidity. lawrence? please. that is just the british version of general salan. then what do we do? we relieve the soviets, and make it now easier for them to come back in and be the new best friends of the terrorist governments of the middle east.
lets not forget that wonderful experience known as the korean war. we are still there. really? and make sure we remember the brilliant minds that got us into that one: truman, eisenhower and ....again in a repeat performance.....charles wilson. what did we do? we actually cut the funding for the war at the time. ouch. way to turn a conflict into a 71 year presence. how did we get so brazen, that we thought defeating hegemony by using hegemony would work?
i will stop now. i am getting boring. just a few things i remember, that's all.
and now we act like we are doing the same thing, but between ourselves and on our soil. surrrrrre, we can beat the commies when they come over the hill. we couldn't even beat the 1st nva, much less the vc. it was all those trees and jungles and stuff, i guess.
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 18, 2021 17:02:38 GMT -8
yes, it is amazing. consider that between 2001-2018, 7,000+ u.s military deaths. 3.000 + in afghanistan alone. can somebody explain to me what we received in return? the whole thing would not have happened, but it did, thanks to charlie wilson, and a potus that had the most dufus advisors since eisenhower and kennedy, and listened to them, and believed them. BTW, appreciate everything you wrote. Enlightening stuff.
I've read (and heard / listened to) that one of the reasons we're in the Afghan war is for opium.
There was a video from a Croatian politician on YouTube from a parliamentary meeting (may have been EU or Croatia, can't remember) and he had a well documented, fact based study with statistics on the rise of the opioid crisis and how it was directly correlated to the Afghani occupation.
It was a FASCINATING video that looks to have been scrubbed from the internet because I can't find it anywhere.
Any thoughts on that?
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parker1865
TCBF Member
Joined: September 2018
Posts: 1,325
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Post by parker1865 on Jan 19, 2021 5:38:48 GMT -8
yes, it is amazing. consider that between 2001-2018, 7,000+ u.s military deaths. 3.000 + in afghanistan alone. can somebody explain to me what we received in return? the whole thing would not have happened, but it did, thanks to charlie wilson, and a potus that had the most dufus advisors since eisenhower and kennedy, and listened to them, and believed them. BTW, appreciate everything you wrote. Enlightening stuff.
I've read (and heard / listened to) that one of the reasons we're in the Afghan war is for opium.
There was a video from a Croatian politician on YouTube from a parliamentary meeting (may have been EU or Croatia, can't remember) and he had a well documented, fact based study with statistics on the rise of the opioid crisis and how it was directly correlated to the Afghani occupation.
It was a FASCINATING video that looks to have been scrubbed from the internet because I can't find it anywhere.
Any thoughts on that?
i can't speak first hand to the drug trade in afghanistan. i do know there was and is a very minor percentage of u.s. military members that were involved in illicit drug trade schemes. it would not surprise me at all to learn that tribal leaders engaged coalition troops under false pretenses, hiding the fact that the engagement was a payback scheme between tribal chiefs. after all, it is no small business in afghanistan. as to viet nam, the drug trade and economic impact was rampant and the cause of many u.s. deaths. there were horrific battles that were fought with laotian/cambodian/chinese/thai armed patrols/sguads/platoon sized units, that were anything but vc. they were organized drug dealers, and were delivering their goods to their largest in-country market: the u.s. gi. there were quite a few illegal enterprises run by a combination tag team of complicit military members and conus based criminal elements. i could go on and on, but the overall impact is and was clear right up to today. macv and the us. government and the cia were well aware of this and reacted to these drug armies violently. it was also well known that these drug armies had the blessing of the communist north leaders, and the blessing (and funding and encouragement) of the red chinese and the soviets. it was a demoralizing tool, a money maker for the nva/vc, and social and political decisions were many times built around the illegal drug trade. there was nothing better for the enemy than a u.s. military member using drugs, and/or being a broker for conus based buyers. there were a lot of non-military u.s. citizens that made quite a bit of cash from the drug trade, at the expense of u.s. military members' lives. the hmong detested the drug armies. they gave no mercy to them. given these thoughts, answering your question in the negative would be foolish, because it is obvious that in part, it was illegal drug trade that financed the war in part, for the communists. as to a main reason, i don't think it was, but it sure flashed a big u.s. $ sign over the battlefield.
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Post by vintagecomics on Jan 19, 2021 8:27:23 GMT -8
BTW, appreciate everything you wrote. Enlightening stuff.
I've read (and heard / listened to) that one of the reasons we're in the Afghan war is for opium.
There was a video from a Croatian politician on YouTube from a parliamentary meeting (may have been EU or Croatia, can't remember) and he had a well documented, fact based study with statistics on the rise of the opioid crisis and how it was directly correlated to the Afghani occupation.
It was a FASCINATING video that looks to have been scrubbed from the internet because I can't find it anywhere.
Any thoughts on that?
the hmong detested the drug armies. they gave no mercy to them. given these thoughts, answering your question in the negative would be foolish, because it is obvious that in part, it was illegal drug trade that financed the war in part, for the communists. as to a main reason, i don't think it was, but it sure flashed a big u.s. $ sign over the battlefield. Some of my favorite people that I've ever met are the local hmong people near me. I worked with a few brothers and they were just amazing humans. They'd go fishing at 4AM somewhere and show up at my front door step with a huge salmon as a gift.
Apparently their dad was a high ranking, highly revered hmong official back in the day. The hmong community bows to him to this day (not sure if he's still alive, that was over 15 years ago that I worked with his sons). There was a large immigration of them into our area a couple of decades ago.
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Regarding the drug trade in Afghanistan, the implication by the Croatian government official in the video I saw was that there was a direct correlation between the increase in the opioid epidemic and what was happening in Afhganistan. I suspect that human nature doesn't change and history does repeat itself.
I found my old post from the Watercooler (but the video is no longer active)
I don't know how true this is or not but this Croatian politician shares statistics that link Opium increases directly to NATO's involvement in Afghanistan.
He notes that there as been a 25 times increase in opium production since NATO entered Afghanistan and that this increase coincides directly with a 25 times increase in opium addicts in the US.
There are other fascinating statistics including increases in overdoses, increases in gun trafficking, decreases in security personnel in Afghanistan allowing the flourishing of the opium industry etc.
He also adds loss of life due to war and questions the actual purpose and benefit of the war in Afghanistan that NATO has waged.
I know it's a long listen at 15 minutes and unless you understand Serbo-Croation you have to read the subtitles but it's a fascinating speech.
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