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Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Jul 10, 2016 16:29:58 GMT -8
It appears to be a kluge.
There shouldn't be this high an incident rate of newton rings with an inner liner if it's done correctly.
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Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Jul 12, 2016 6:32:30 GMT -8
More rejected Barex inventory. This is the biggest puddling we've seen in years. Certification #: 1334751008 Title: Batman Adventures Issue: 12 Issue Date: 2015 Issue Year: 2015 Publisher: D.C. Comics Grade: 10.0 Page Quality: WHITE Grade Date: 06/14/2016 Variant: Special Convention Foil Edition Category: Modern Art Comments: Jonboy Meyers cover Key Comments: Reprints Batman Adventures #12 Foil cover. Grader Notes: None Available   |
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Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Jul 24, 2016 7:13:45 GMT -8
More "puddling" Certification #: 1391250002 Title: Green Lantern Issue: 86 Issue Date: 10-11/71 Issue Year: 1971 Publisher: D.C. Comics Grade: 9.8 Total Graded At: 28 Page Quality: WHITE Label Text: SIGNED BY NEAL ADAMS ON 4/10/16 Grade Date: 07/06/2016 Category: Signature Art Comments: Denny O'Neil story Neal Adams and Dick Giordano art Neal Adams cover Key Comments: Anti-drug story concludes. Grader Notes: None Available  |
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Post by freemason on Oct 7, 2016 17:23:02 GMT -8
Spectacular Spider-Man (1976 1st Series) #64 CGC 9.8 (0962606006) Graded August 2nd, 2016. Response from MyComicShop which sold me the item: The "oil stains" and newton ring effect have been present to some degree in some CGC slabs well before the case change, and after the case was modified--it's just that they were even more common and severe in the new case before it was "fixed". While it'd be great if no CGC slabs had any newton ring effect, that book does not appear to me to be particularly unusual--stuff like that can be found on many CGC slabs. And, like I said, that slab was graded well after CGC modified it's case to address known problems, so even if it was recased today it would be going into a new slab structurally similar to the one it's already in. Best, Conan    |
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Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Oct 8, 2016 12:24:59 GMT -8
Spectacular Spider-Man (1976 1st Series) #64 CGC 9.8 (0962606006) Graded August 2nd, 2016. Response from MyComicShop which sold me the item: The "oil stains" and newton ring effect have been present to some degree in some CGC slabs well before the case change, and after the case was modified--it's just that they were even more common and severe in the new case before it was "fixed". While it'd be great if no CGC slabs had any newton ring effect, that book does not appear to me to be particularly unusual--stuff like that can be found on many CGC slabs. And, like I said, that slab was graded well after CGC modified it's case to address known problems, so even if it was recased today it would be going into a new slab structurally similar to the one it's already in. Best, Conan Thanks for posting those examples of the Frankenholder Case. There are hundreds of examples of this problem posted on the internet in various comic book sites. Much of what Conan said is true, and it has put MyComicShop and all other sellers of CGC books in a very difficult position. At some point, if they aren't doing this already, sellers are going to have to put large disclaimers in every listing they make or they will be dealing with nothing but returns and disgruntled customers. Having said that, MyComicShop (and Conan specifically) have an excellent customer service methodology. If you aren't happy with this book (and why should you be?) I'm sure they'll allow you to return it. Just tell them Ditch sent you.  And feel free to link this post. ------- Here are the reasons why I can no longer recommend CGC as a third-party comic book certification service: Scenario 1 (All CGC Books Graded Prior to 6/24/16)
1) Most books graded or reholdered between 4/4/16 and 6/24/16 were damaged, or are currently being damaged by the Creep Engine Case. 2) CGC encouraged and paid for reholdering into the Frankenholder Case to solve the damage problem, but reholders are NOT re-graded. 3) Reholders keep the old grade date and grade, and there is NO notation of having been reholdered. 4) CGC used the old case (the one used for years prior to 4/4/16) as a final solution when the book was damaged multiple times by the Creep Engine Case. LinkWhat does this mean? It means ALL CGC books with grade dates prior to 6/24/16 are now highly suspect. They come in 3 varieties: A) Old Cases with grade dates prior to 4/4/16. B) Creep Engine Cases used between 4/4/16 and 6/24/16. C) Frankenholder Cases with grade dates prior to 6/24/16. That book being sold on eBay or elsewhere with a grade date prior to 6/24/16 could actually be harboring damage caused by the Creep Engine Case. In other words, the grade on the outside of the case is absolutely meaningless.Scenario 2 (All CGC Books Graded Between 6/24/16 and the Present)1) Effective 6/24/16, the Frankenholder Case is used for all submissions (grading and reholders), including those currently at CGC. 2) The Frankenholder Case is an untested quick fix which uses an inner liner (like the Old Case) with spacers and modifications made to the Creep Engine Case to eliminate the damage caused by the original pressurized design of the Creep Engine Case. 3) Unlike the Old Case, the Frankenholder Case does not keep an adequate air gap between the inner liner and the outer case. This can cause huge newton ring areas, specifically across the entire front surface of the enclosed book. The net effect of these newton ring areas is to obscure the enclosed book, making an aethetically unappealing presentation (to say the least). 4) Sometimes the inner liner of the Old Case would warp sufficiently to touch the outer case (usually towards the center of the book) causing small areas of newton rings. Many times this could be fixed by sliding something thin (like a piece of paper) between the inner liner and the outer case to effectively create an air gap between the two surfaces and eliminate the newton ring area. Unfortunately, the Frankenholder Case is sealed along the sides so this is not possible - you are stuck with the unappealing newton ring areas which resemble an oil slick across the front of the comic book. |
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Post by freemason on Oct 8, 2016 23:30:24 GMT -8
Ditch, thanks for all that info, what a mess CGC have created for themselves! I've contacted their customer service and sent them the pics, hopefully they'll reholder it for me.
I wish there were a decent competitor for CGC. I find PGX and CBCS cases not at all pretty to look at. Surely it couldn't be that hard for someone to design an aesthetically pleasing case in a technologically advanced archival plastic and a construction that doesn't damage books.
And yeah, a disclaimer from MyComicShop would have been nice; something like: this case has some of the worst puddling you'll ever see, but we're not going to mention it in the item description or anywhere else and we're going to take one pic in low light and at such an angle that the Newton's Rings will not be apparent. Happy Bidding!
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Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Oct 9, 2016 13:47:13 GMT -8
CGC might be able to reduce the "amount" of newton rings on your book with a reholder. If you can live with a few areas, that might be a good option for you. By the way, "Puddling" is a different problem. It's basically big ripples in the inner liner that CGC uses. This is an actual physical problem rather than an optical effect. Typically, it's on the back side. Supposedly, the cause was insufficient cooling of the Barex liner prior to removal from the mold. This was an issue several years ago at CGC, but it's recently reared its ugly head again. Here are some examples:  Good luck with everything and let us know what happens. I hope you get the issue resolved to your satisfaction.  |
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Post by freemason on Oct 11, 2016 14:43:34 GMT -8
Response from CGC customer service: " I have taken a look at the photos you have attached. I can see the newton rings on the cover. Newton Rings have been apparent in our cases since our company originated. We can have this reholdered for you however there is no guarantee that the newton rings will not return. If you do decide to have this book reholdered, you would be expected to cover the fees. There is no damage being done to the book from the newton rings, it is a result of the inner-well plastic touching the outer case. Please let me know if you have any further questions. Best, Customer Service Certified Guaranty Company p. 1-877-662-6642 | f. 941.360.2558 " Seriously, what a #$$%^$  company.... ![]()  ![]() |
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Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Oct 11, 2016 17:50:06 GMT -8
Response from CGC customer service: " I have taken a look at the photos you have attached. I can see the newton rings on the cover. Newton Rings have been apparent in our cases since our company originated. We can have this reholdered for you however there is no guarantee that the newton rings will not return. If you do decide to have this book reholdered, you would be expected to cover the fees. There is no damage being done to the book from the newton rings, it is a result of the inner-well plastic touching the outer case. Please let me know if you have any further questions. Best, Customer Service Certified Guaranty Company p. 1-877-662-6642 | f. 941.360.2558 " Seriously, what a #$$%^$ company.... ![]() ![]()  Translation"Yeah, we know our case looks awful and you can't see your comic book. We can't fix it. But hey...at least we're not destroying your comic book anymore...so we got that going for us." It's funny to put this in contrast with what they said just a few months ago. We are definitely forging ahead with plans to eliminate the newton effect completely. Even if the presence of newton at an angle has been known in the hobby for years, its elimination would be bring the holder even closer to perfection.--Matt Nelson 5/6/16  Anyway...I would definitely send that back for a refund. You aren't happy with it, and you're going to have one hell of a difficult time selling it in the future. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2016 14:04:21 GMT -8
"I wish there were a decent competitor for CGC. I find PGX and CBCS cases not at all pretty to look at." Well, even if PGX had the nicest case in the world you still shouldn't buy a comic slabbed by them. Common sense. "I wish there were a decent competitor for CGC. I find PGX and CBCS cases not at all pretty to look at." , they're not pretty to look at. You guys kill me with this. People who won't buy a CBCS slab just because of the "rivets" are complete ! Whole bunch of them on the CBCS board too. "And yeah, a disclaimer from MyComicShop would have been nice; something like: this case has some of the worst puddling you'll ever see, but we're not going to mention it in the item description or anywhere else and we're going to take one pic in low light and at such an angle that the Newton's Rings will not be apparent. Happy Bidding!" You've got to kidding me with this request.. If you need to blame someone blame CGC, not MCS. They don't have time to inspect every slab for newton rings for anal retentive collectors who want to make sure they can flip it. And as Ditch said, Newton rings are not puddling. |
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Post by Stu on Oct 16, 2016 12:25:57 GMT -8
"I wish there were a decent competitor for CGC. I find PGX and CBCS cases not at all pretty to look at." Well, even if PGX had the nicest case in the world you still shouldn't buy a comic slabbed by them. Common sense. "I wish there were a decent competitor for CGC. I find PGX and CBCS cases not at all pretty to look at." , they're not pretty to look at. You guys kill me with this. People who won't buy a CBCS slab just because of the "rivets" are complete ! Whole bunch of them on the CBCS board too. "And yeah, a disclaimer from MyComicShop would have been nice; something like: this case has some of the worst puddling you'll ever see, but we're not going to mention it in the item description or anywhere else and we're going to take one pic in low light and at such an angle that the Newton's Rings will not be apparent. Happy Bidding!" You've got to kidding me with this request.. If you need to blame someone blame CGC, not MCS. They don't have time to inspect every slab for newton rings for anal retentive collectors who want to make sure they can flip it. And as Ditch said, Newton rings are not puddling. I'm still here, just changed my name |
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Post by freemason on Oct 25, 2016 2:58:35 GMT -8
After much negotiation, CGC has agreed to reholder that PP #64 free of charge. I'll let you all know how it goes. So did all these problems really start with the new cases? Here's another from my collection. It's the older style case, and it's got these 'waves' that are really bothering me. I'm thinking of getting it reholdered, especially if the case is defective and this is going to get worse: You can see a slight wave along the side:  If you look at the comic with the light up against it, you can see this:  Is this 'Engine Creep' damage? Should I be worried? Is this only going to get worse with time if I leave it in this case? Should I get it re-holdered? I'm not sure if this is a recent development or if it has happened over time as I bought this recently. |
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Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Oct 26, 2016 7:24:05 GMT -8
That's not a creep engine effect.
That's just a distorted inner liner, which is common.
The distortion has transferred to the comic inside, but it won't get any worse over time.
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Post by freemason on Oct 26, 2016 20:27:55 GMT -8
Thanks Ditch.
Hmmmm...I am preparing some other books for a CGC submission, I'm wondering if I should throw this in with that lot for a re-holder.
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Post by Ditch Fahrenheit on Oct 27, 2016 7:54:14 GMT -8
That would be a personal decision based on how you collect.
If left in the current holder, the warping won't get any worse; but you might get complaints if you tried to sell it. Some buyers might mistake that for exposure to moisture, etc.
On the other hand, if you reholder with the Frankenholder, you might end up with a bunch of newton rings.
You probably have a third choice. If CGC is smart (debatable), they're working on a new holder right now (similar to the original holder) that provides a gap between the inner liner and the outer case. You could just wait for that holder to come out...but it might not be anytime soon.
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And feel free to link this post.
company....
